'Sons of Anarchy' on FX

[Morphinity 2.0]

Phil, was this your favorite show ever?

[Phil]

Phil, was this your favorite show ever?

 

I think so, yeah. If it's not my absolute favorite, it's number two.

 

Only 24 and Breaking Bad pulled me in as deep as this show did, but I don't think either would actually sit above it.

 

Yeah, fuck it. It was.

 

--

 

Also, Scags, this is the image I was talking about:

 

[Bluephoria]

I can't believe it's over.

 

Fuck.

 

That ended beautifully.

[rvbcaboose]

I liked the finale. I mean toward the end, it got a little heavy handed in the symbolism and stuff, but it ended well. I actually liked how the beginning hour or so felt like a normal episode of SoA.

 

That being said, i think my biggest criticism of the show lies in how different the earlier seasons were. I really liked how it was periods of sheer ruthlessness combined with humor (see, Juice with the 'slightly retarded child' sign stapled to him). After the third season, about midway into the 4th one it got real serious with little humor. Last episode i can think that was like that was when Venus got introduced.

 

Overall, definitely going down as one of my favorite shows.

[Phil]

I attribute that to the evolution of the show, and how the Club continued to get deeper and deeper into the shit as the seasons' went on. Remember, when we first started here, they were basically beefing with the Niners and Mayans over small territorial disputes. It was the gun-running and all the other shit that came as a result of it that sank them further and further into more serious waters as the seasons went on.

 

If anything, I'd credit them for being able to maintain that same humor, even if it occurred less often, in the later seasons considering the dire nature of all the angles. I mean, Juice facing certain death, is still able to crack "Jackie Chan" and "Fat Oprah" jokes in prison, ya know?

[I am Scags]

I liked the finale. I mean toward the end, it got a little heavy handed in the symbolism and stuff, but it ended well. I actually liked how the beginning hour or so felt like a normal episode of SoA.

 

That being said, i think my biggest criticism of the show lies in how different the earlier seasons were. I really liked how it was periods of sheer ruthlessness combined with humor (see, Juice with the 'slightly retarded child' sign stapled to him). After the third season, about midway into the 4th one it got real serious with little humor. Last episode i can think that was like that was when Venus got introduced.

 

Overall, definitely going down as one of my favorite shows.

 

I tend to agree a little, it did take more of a 'serious' turn later in the series, but that's also the evolutions of a lot shows. I remember watching those very first Sopranos episodes a few years ago and being a little shocked on how different the show was when it first started in 1999 to its conclusion in 2007. That first year was really all about Tony and his therapist, and then it eventually started to evolve into the NJ mafia show we all grew to know.

[-ERIK-]

Gonna miss the show

Looked forward to this every week

Hope they do a prequel one day

[Vodka Drunkenski]

Just watched the pilot and I'm hooked

[Phil]

Nice. Shame you're catching up now that it's over, but this was easily one of my favorite shows of all-time, if not my absolute favorite.

[Vodka Drunkenski]

Better than Jack Bauer?

[I am Scags]

Yea it hooks you pretty quick. I started along in the 2nd or 3rd episode of season 2 and found it while channel flipping

[Future]

Just for a different perspective...I'd say stop watching after Season 3. There are some good moments but I think it drags.

 

The Season 3 finale is probably the best episode of any show that I've ever seen. But the rest of the series is pretty meh I think.

[Phil]

Better than Jack Bauer?

 

Completely different shows. 24 was great for the week-to-week adrenaline but never really had much in terms of an over-arching theme that carried season to season. It was pretty much a different show each season with cross-over only in the characters used. It was always exciting, but I don't know if I'd classify it in the same sense I would a show like Sons which functioned like a Shakespearean play with multiple acts and a final curtain.

[Phil]

Just for a different perspective...I'd say stop watching after Season 3. There are some good moments but I think it drags.

 

The Season 3 finale is probably the best episode of any show that I've ever seen. But the rest of the series is pretty meh I think.

 

And I'd utterly disagree. Some of the most shocking, and most emotional moments of the series occur well after this.

[Future]

And I'd utterly disagree. Some of the most shocking, and most emotional moments of the series occur well after this.

Yea, there are big moments, I agree. But I'd say that, probably, 2/3 of the episodes are just minutiae that don't really push anything forward.

 

 

SPOILER ALERT IF YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED

 

 

All the stuff with Juice, Unser, the cop sleeping with Chibs, Tig's...situation, Nero's never ending quest to leave, etc. is all just mumbo jumbo. None of it pushes the plot forward. You could have had the exact same ending at the end of season 4...or I'd say right after Opie dies, and have the same impact.

 

[Vodka Drunkenski]

How did I not start watching this show from the get go. Looks like I have something to take up my spare time at work for the summer.

[I am Scags]

Yea, there are big moments, I agree. But I'd say that, probably, 2/3 of the episodes are just minutiae that don't really push anything forward.

 

 

SPOILER ALERT IF YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED

 

 

All the stuff with Juice, Unser, the cop sleeping with Chibs, Tig's...situation, Nero's never ending quest to leave, etc. is all just mumbo jumbo. None of it pushes the plot forward. You could have had the exact same ending at the end of season 4...or I'd say right after Opie dies, and have the same impact.

 

 

Yes because the cartel, Clay, the Irish, Pope, just to name a few all were just minor things too.... :rolleyes:

 

Whatever...to each their own

 

[Phil]

Sorry Future, but I don't agree at all. They were all steps along the path that took Jax from A to Z. This entire story was the story of him, which makes all the sidebar stories that intertwined with him important.

 

 

Not to mention they added depth to the story so that every week wasn't entirely just about Jax's struggles. I loved Tig's "situation". The ending they gave him with Venus was beautiful. So was the entire Nero arc, because of what he represented as the father Jax never really had, etc.

 

 

But like Scags said, to each their own. I'd argue that anyone cutting this show off at the end of season three, great as it was, would be doing themselves a huge disservice. All pun intended, it's like the equivalent of walking out on Hamlet after Act Two for whatever the reason. I guess you can be happy with a partial story, but I can't. I'd be furious not knowing what happened, or why.

[Future]

Sorry Future, but I don't agree at all. They were all steps along the path that took Jax from A to Z. This entire story was the story of him, which makes all the sidebar stories that intertwined with him important.

I would make the argument that absolutely nothing that happened after the end of season 3 - mid season 4 gave you any new insights to Jax.

 

 

You never see Jax even attempt to be a father, which is a pathetic effort by the show. Seriously, the kids were always with Unser or the porn star or whoever. For someone who said he loved his kids and wanted to do everything for them, he certainly never made an effort to show that.

 

You get the jist with Nero in about 5 minutes as, right from jump street, he's the guy that Jax wants to be who walks away...but how many times do they have to have the same exact argument? We don't need three seasons of Nero whining about how he can't leave. We didn't need it with Tara and certainly not with Jax. Did we even need Tara getting killed to set Jax off on a murder spree? The entire final season was just added material. We didn't learn anything about Jax.

 

The sidebar stories are so tangential that they don't push the Jax narrative anywhere. They just exist for the sake of being there. Sure, they bring some depth, but the show was plenty deep enough in the first 3 seasons before there were 10 plots running. Instead of those lame stories you could have kept characters in scenes, rather than just having the nomads they brought in running errands for no reason and never developing at all.

 

 

This show ended up getting just like The Walking Dead when they were in the prison. Too many episodes of stuff setting up other stuff and nothing happening. Fans can make the "character development" argument all they want but, in the end, you learn about characters by what they do.

 

Maybe I'll change what I said to skip from the season 3 finale to one particular episode in season 4 and then jump to the finale. The rest is all entertaining at best, a sludge of unnecessary plots and undeveloped characters at worst.

[Phil]

Spoiler tag works like this:

 

[spoiler]Spoiler text here[/spoiler]

[Phil]

I would make the argument that absolutely nothing that happened after the end of season 3 - mid season 4 gave you any new insights to Jax.

 

 

You never see Jax even attempt to be a father, which is a pathetic effort by the show. Seriously, the kids were always with Unser or the porn star or whoever. For someone who said he loved his kids and wanted to do everything for them, he certainly never made an effort to show that.

 

You get the jist with Nero in about 5 minutes as, right from jump street, he's the guy that Jax wants to be who walks away...but how many times do they have to have the same exact argument? We don't need three seasons of Nero whining about how he can't leave. We didn't need it with Tara and certainly not with Jax. Did we even need Tara getting killed to set Jax off on a murder spree? The entire final season was just added material. We didn't learn anything about Jax.

 

The sidebar stories are so tangential that they don't push the Jax narrative anywhere. They just exist for the sake of being there. Sure, they bring some depth, but the show was plenty deep enough in the first 3 seasons before there were 10 plots running. Instead of those lame stories you could have kept characters in scenes, rather than just having the nomads they brought in running errands for no reason and never developing at all.

 

 

This show ended up getting just like The Walking Dead when they were in the prison. Too many episodes of stuff setting up other stuff and nothing happening. Fans can make the "character development" argument all they want but, in the end, you learn about characters by what they do.

 

Maybe I'll change what I said to skip from the season 3 finale to one particular episode in season 4 and then jump to the finale. The rest is all entertaining at best, a sludge of unnecessary plots and undeveloped characters at worst.

 

 

Completely disagree. I think we learned that Jax can't be the man his father wanted him to be, which was what made his love for his own sons such an important arc in the final season, and what made the scene where he gave them up so important. We saw him try and fail to be the man J.T. hoped he'd be, only for him to be unable to do so. He recognizes this in the final season, so much to the point he willingly gives his life to save both SAMCRO and his boys. Especially his boys, from ever growing up loving the thought of him, which would pull them into the life of chaos he lived.

 

 

Again, for me, this is about the over-arching tale of Jax (Hamlet). Not particularly enjoying Act Three or Act Two doesn't make them any less important to the total story being told.

 

Maybe you feel you could watch Hamlet by watching Act's One and Two, fast-forwarding/sleeping through three, and jumping right to the conclusion because this angle or that one don't seem to have an effect on the ending itself, and you might even be right, but they absolutely have an effect on the story-telling if you are viewing or reading it as a whole. This show, like The Walking Dead, is the type of programming you need to be invested in on a weekly basis, in loving and appreciating the slow-burn effect of having the bigger picture told to you over the course of all seven seasons.

[Future]

Hamlet is different because you can read the entire thing in two hours. It constantly moves forward. The SOA finale was almost that long on its own.

 

The slow burn is a product of TV ratings and having to fill X number of episodes/hours not some grand effort to build a bigger picture.

 

 

Eh, I just don't buy that take on Jax as a father at all. He was a shitty dad who took the easy way out b/c he was afraid to leave his motorcycle bros. He had every opportunity to leave - including going to Seattle (I think) with Tara and simply walking away - and just chose not to. In the end, he chose abandoning his responsibilities as a father to be just like his dad. He could have killed himself at a number of different points in the series - especially after Opie died - and we could say all the same things you are

 

[Phil]

Except that if he'd done so at any point prior to the final season, he'd actually have been skirting his responsibilities as a father. He didn't do that in the finale. Not specifically to avoid being one. He did it because he, by that point, wanted his kids to grow up hating the thought of him, to protect them from ever finding SAMCRO or the club lifestyle appealing. It was calculated.

[I am Scags]

Hamlet is different because you can read the entire thing in two hours. It constantly moves forward. The SOA finale was almost that long on its own.

 

The slow burn is a product of TV ratings and having to fill X number of episodes/hours not some grand effort to build a bigger picture.

 

 

Eh, I just don't buy that take on Jax as a father at all. He was a shitty dad who took the easy way out b/c he was afraid to leave his motorcycle bros. He had every opportunity to leave - including going to Seattle (I think) with Tara and simply walking away - and just chose not to. In the end, he chose abandoning his responsibilities as a father to be just like his dad. He could have killed himself at a number of different points in the series - especially after Opie died - and we could say all the same things you are

 

 

Well I will agree with you on that, IMO Jax was a terrible father as was his. Granted they loved their children very much but with Jax especially it was maybe not enough to leave an outlaw life that he had several chances to do. Sort of like a meth addict who has a family and a so called normal life but ultimately can't can't stop using and allows it to destroy his family. Jax may have hugged his kids and shown them affection when he got home after a day of laying slugs into people, but he was a lousy father and I think either that was written that way intentionally by Sutter or he just didn't feel the need to write in the little moments and daily interactions of the parent/child relationship. Did they even once show him working on bikes with Abel and showing him stuff? Or just throwing a baseball or participating in his preschool life? It was always club first, family second

 

With all that said though, we still disagree on liking the show :)

 

[Future]

Well I will agree with you on that, IMO Jax was a terrible father as was his. Granted they loved their children very much but with Jax especially it was not maybe enough to leave an outlaw life that he had several chances to do. Sort of like a meth addict who has a family and a normal life but can't stop using. Jax may have hugged his kids and shown them affection when he got home after a day of laying slugs into people, but he was a lousy father and I think either that was written that way intentionally by Sutter or he just didn't feel the need to write in the little moments and daily interactions of the parent/child. Did they even once show him working on bikes with Abel and showing him stuff? Or just throwing a baseball or participating in his preschool life?

 

With all that said though, we still disagree on liking the show :)

Lol, well, in general, I like the show. I just think the first half of it is world's better than the second. It could just be much, much better than it ended up being.