Future Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Except that if he'd done so at any point prior to the final season, he'd actually have been skirting his responsibilities as a father. He didn't do that in the finale. Not specifically to avoid being one. He did it because he, by that point, wanted his kids to grow up hating the thought of him, to protect them from ever finding SAMCRO or the club lifestyle appealing. It was calculated. Calculated or not, he is absolutely avoiding being a father. He uses wanting them to hate him as an excuse to not explicitly leave the club and the lifestyle. He could just be a father literally anywhere else and lead his kids away from that life. Instead, he took the cowardly easy way out and left his child with no parents. Essentially, he left them with the guy, Nero, who is doing EXACTLY what Jax could have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 When it comes to suicide, there tends to be two different types of people — those who empathize with it, and those who consider it cowardly. Never the two shall meet in the middle, and rarely do they find common ground of any kind. I tend to empathize. You clearly view it as a cowardly act. I don't believe Jax was ever a good father, but I do believe that he did his kids the biggest favor he could in killing himself the way he did by the end of the show, because what he came to learn of himself through all his attempts to go legit is that he's not a good person. Even if he wanted to be one. So the fact of the matter is, he knew he'd come back to the Club. He knew his kids would end up wearing kutts. He knew violence would always gravitate to him the way he gravitated toward it. He knew all these things because he tried to change and failed at every attempt. You say he could have taken them and run. We saw him try. Look what happened. He came right back. The violence followed him, and he ultimately ended up right back at the head of the table again. Both because he's not a good father/person, and because his loyalties have always been torn between being a member of a violent, loyal-to-the-grave club and being a good person. At the end of the day, him dying, and dying in the manner he did, gave his kids the best possible shot at a real life, with real parents (Wendy and Nero), even if they aren't his own blood. Them growing up hating the thought of their "coward" of a father is exactly what would keep them the hell away from Charming, SAMCRO, the Sons of Anarchy and all the chaos that surrounds them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 When it comes to suicide, there tends to be two different types of people — those who empathize with it, and those who consider it cowardly. Never the two shall meet in the middle, and rarely do they find common ground of any kind. I tend to empathize. You clearly view it as a cowardly act. I don't believe Jax was ever a good father, but I do believe that he did his kids the biggest favor he could in killing himself the way he did by the end of the show, because what he came to learn of himself through all his attempts to go legit is that he's not a good person. Even if he wanted to be one. So the fact of the matter is, he knew he'd come back to the Club. He knew his kids would end up wearing kutts. He knew violence would always gravitate to him the way he gravitated toward it. He knew all these things because he tried to change and failed at every attempt. You say he could have taken them and run. We saw him try. Look what happened. He came right back. The violence followed him, and he ultimately ended up right back at the head of the table again. Both because he's not a good father/person, and because his loyalties have always been torn between being a member of a violent, loyal-to-the-grave club and being a good person. At the end of the day, him dying, and dying in the manner he did, gave his kids the best possible shot at a real life, with real parents (Wendy and Nero), even if they aren't his own blood. Them growing up hating the thought of their "coward" of a father is exactly what would keep them the hell away from Charming, SAMCRO, the Sons of Anarchy and all the chaos that surrounds them all. It's not the suicide itself that I find cowardly, it's abandoning his kids. It's no different than just moving to Jamaica and not telling anybody. Yes, he did what he thought was right to keep his kids away...which I would argue is wrong anyways since his father did the same thing...but it wasn't the only way. It was the easy way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 It's not the suicide itself that I find cowardly, it's abandoning his kids. It's no different than just moving to Jamaica and not telling anybody. Yes, he did what he thought was right to keep his kids away...which I would argue is wrong anyways since his father did the same thing...but it wasn't the only way. It was the easy way. Yes, it is, because we've just established that he cannot live and stay away. He just can't. Nor can he keep the violence at bay. He's not a good father or a good person. He's a violent criminal and a killer. Anywhere he goes, chaos follows, and that's assuming he doesn't just get pulled back in anyway. So let me ask you — what scenario do you see where he doesn't kill himself that still gives Abel and Thomas the best opportunity not to join Sons or remain in Charming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Yes, it is, because we've just established that he cannot live and stay away. He just can't. Nor can he keep the violence at bay. He's not a good father or a good person. He's a violent criminal and a killer. Anywhere he goes, chaos follows, and that's assuming he doesn't just get pulled back in anyway. So let me ask you — what scenario do you see where he doesn't kill himself that still gives Abel and Thomas the best opportunity not to join Sons or remain in Charming? Why can't he live and stay away? I've had this debate before, and I've never gotten a good answer. If he just upped and moved to, say, Connecticut, the club isn't just going to follow him there. He resigned to the fact that he'd always be a criminal in the "I'm an average mechanic" speech - don't remember exactly when, and that's on him. There was no reason for it. The biggest problem for him leaving was his mother who killed Tara, the only person trying to get him to leave. The can/can't rhetoric with Jax just exists to fit the narrative. He absolutely could have left, but chose not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 Why can't he live and stay away? I've had this debate before, and I've never gotten a good answer. If he just upped and moved to, say, Connecticut, the club isn't just going to follow him there. He resigned to the fact that he'd always be a criminal in the "I'm an average mechanic" speech - don't remember exactly when, and that's on him. There was no reason for it. The biggest problem for him leaving was his mother who killed Tara, the only person trying to get him to leave. The can/can't rhetoric with Jax just exists to fit the narrative. He absolutely could have left, but chose not to. Numerous reasons: 1. There are Sons of Anarchy chapters all over the world in the Sons world. They aren't just in Charming, or the West coast. They reach all the way to Canada, Alaska, New York City, Ireland, Sweden, the UK, Poland, Australia, etc. In fact, just see the back of this sweatshirt that FX sells for a better understanding of just how many charters there are, and how wide spread their reach is: http://shop.fxnetworks.com/imgcache/property/resized/000/756/096/cat06/sons-of-anarchy-charters-hoodie_500.jpg?k=799e9cd5&pid=463034&s=cat06&sn=fx 2. He had a Mayhem vote go against him. SAMCRO specifically faked his "escape" so they didn't have to actually kill him. Another club would, should they find him. He'd be a marked man the rest of his life, because remember — the reason that Mayhem vote went through to begin with was because he murdered another member. A President no less. So let's not even go down the route of "oh, well this only matters in Charming", because it clearly doesn't. He'd immediately be seen as an enemy of the Sons of Anarchy Motorcycle Club world wide. Enemies of the Sons don't live long. 3. Even if he did decide to run, they'd find him eventually, and kill him. So what use is he to his sons or his Sons killed by other members? He was a dead man, one way or another. He chose to go out on his own terms instead, saving both his sons in the process. -- At the end of the day, he tried to change the club from within, to go legit, as a means to be a better man — he failed. He tried to leave the club, to go legit, as a means to be a better man — he failed. What option is left — rot away as a marked man in some desolate cabin in the woods somewhere hoping and praying none of his former brothers ever find him? Good luck with that. If that's your definition of "he could have left, but chose not to", yeah, I suppose you're right. But in that world, he'd be found, and he'd be killed, so he'd be of absolutely no use to his sons or the Sons no matter what he did. Also, re-watch the finale or the penultimate episode (I forget which it was). Listen to the "speech" he gives the District Attorney. It's clear he understands he has no ability to be a good person, because he isn't one, no matter how desperately he wants to be. He literally admits to being, "a criminal, and a murderer" when talking about his own character and says the words "I'm not a good person" to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Numerous reasons: 1. There are Sons of Anarchy chapters all over the world in the Sons world. They aren't just in Charming, or the West coast. They reach all the way to Canada, Alaska, New York City, Ireland, Sweden, the UK, Poland, Australia, etc. In fact, just see the back of this sweatshirt that FX sells for a better understanding of just how many charters there are, and how wide spread their reach is: http://shop.fxnetworks.com/imgcache/property/resized/000/756/096/cat06/sons-of-anarchy-charters-hoodie_500.jpg?k=799e9cd5&pid=463034&s=cat06&sn=fx 2. He had a Mayhem vote go against him. SAMCRO specifically faked his "escape" so they didn't have to actually kill him. Another club would, should they find him. He'd be a marked man the rest of his life, because remember — the reason that Mayhem vote went through to begin with was because he murdered another member. A President no less. So let's not even go down the route of "oh, well this only matters in Charming", because it clearly doesn't. He'd immediately be seen as an enemy of the Sons of Anarchy Motorcycle Club world wide. Enemies of the Sons don't live long. 3. Even if he did decide to run, they'd find him eventually, and kill him. So what use is he to his sons or his Sons killed by other members? He was a dead man, one way or another. He chose to go out on his own terms instead, saving both his sons in the process. -- At the end of the day, he tried to change the club from within, to go legit, as a means to be a better man — he failed. He tried to leave the club, to go legit, as a means to be a better man — he failed. What option is left — rot away as a marked man in some desolate cabin in the woods somewhere hoping and praying none of his former brothers ever find him? Good luck with that. If that's your definition of "he could have left, but chose not to", yeah, I suppose you're right. But in that world, he'd be found, and he'd be killed, so he'd be of absolutely no use to his sons or the Sons no matter what he did. Also, re-watch the finale or the penultimate episode (I forget which it was). Listen to the "speech" he gives the District Attorney. It's clear he understands he has no ability to be a good person, because he isn't one, no matter how desperately he wants to be. He literally admits to being, "a criminal, and a murderer" when talking about his own character and says the words "I'm not a good person" to her. I meant leave before the finale, my bad for not being clear enough. He put himself in that position because he refused to leave, and had resigned to it long before. The mechanic quote I referenced was the opening episode of season 4 Jax: "I'm an okay mechanic with a GED. The only thing I do well is outlaw." How is that ANY different than his stance in the series finale? Through all of the stuff that happens, his perspective never changes. The only way he could grow was by leaving, and he could have at one point. He could have changed his whole path. Instead, he ends up right where he was at the beginning of season 4. No growth. Hence, all of the stories from that point on are minutiae that do nothing to push anything forward other than help Jax dig his own grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 Right, because he chose not to leave. He's too conflicted/vested with his loyalties to his club to allow his loyalties to his family to actually pull him out. Close as he got, in trying to leave with Tara, he ended up being hunted by Clay and having a bounty put on both their heads. Easier said than done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twentyseven Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 I just watched all 7 seasons in a little over a month. Really good show, the characters made me feel angry, sad, and all other types of emotions. The Jax character was portrayed really well but boy did he make me angry. I hated the cop out of saying all he could be is a criminal but at least in the end he was able to steer his boys away from that life. I will never be able to look at Peggy Bundy the same. Chibs was an amazing character, probably my favorite of the bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twentyseven Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I didn't read all 41 pages of this thread so if it was repeated, I apologize but does anyone else think that Jax looks like Hagelin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 19, 2015 Author Share Posted June 19, 2015 A little. It's just the long blonde hair thing. He looked more like him in season 2 than any other. http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/.a/6a00d834518cc969e20134862c2c48970c-pi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodka Drunkenski Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Starting season 6 today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Nice! God, I miss this thread. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodka Drunkenski Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 2 seasons left, I'm getting sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Yeah, going through it on demand like that too, I'd imagine it's even worse a feeling knowing time is winding down. Hope you love it all as much as I did. I'm excited to see your thoughts on the finale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodka Drunkenski Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Didn't get a chance to start season 6 yet, last season ended with Tara getting arrested. I'm guessing Clay gave her up when he got arrested for Pope's murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodka Drunkenski Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Season 6 done...wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 YES! Now the real fun begins! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodka Drunkenski Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I don't want it to end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodka Drunkenski Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Starting season 7 this morning, something tells me I might be done with it by the end of the day. On a side note, I read this morning that they are about to start filming the Mayans spinoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 Yup, and there is still interest/hope in an "Original Nine" prequel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Yup, and there is still interest/hope in an "Original Nine" prequel. I think that would be WAY more interesting than the actual show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodka Drunkenski Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 1/4 done with season 7. Don't fuck with the Chinese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodka Drunkenski Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Just finished...wow, I'm sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 I legit shed tears at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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