Phil Posted December 28, 2020 Author Share Posted December 28, 2020 Not for them. They don't pay people, and they're in no position to be giving up multiple picks to bloat a middle six centers salary just to get him to sign. They'd be lucky to even make the playoffs with him. Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keirik Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 Not for them. They don't pay people, and they're in no position to be giving up multiple picks to bloat a middle six centers salary just to get him to sign. They'd be lucky to even make the playoffs with him. Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk For now, but if you are trying to build a team for the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted December 28, 2020 Author Share Posted December 28, 2020 For now, but if you are trying to build a team for the future? They are building a team for the future (as best they can). They have the seventh best organizational rating according to Pronman, with Brannstrom, Chabot, White, Balcers, Chlapik, Josh Norris, Tkachuk, etc. all in their teens or early twenties. Formenton and Batherson are coming. So are Stuetzle and Sanderson. Their future is bright. Why would you shoot your shot early giving up at least one first-rounder to get a middle-six center you don't need yet when you can wash second-rounders in two trades and pick up a quality stop gap, plus some quality NHL players? Put another way, why pay one guy $6 million in the hopes he becomes a first-line center when you can pay another guy $2 million who you know what you're getting out of while helping you to meet the cap floor, picking up a slew of assets along the way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keirik Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 They are building a team for the future (as best they can). They have the seventh best organizational rating according to Pronman, with Brannstrom, Chabot, White, Balcers, Chlapik, Josh Norris, Tkachuk, etc. all in their teens or early twenties. Formenton and Batherson are coming. So are Stuetzle and Sanderson. Their future is bright. Why would you shoot your shot early giving up at least one first-rounder to get a middle-six center you don't need yet when you can wash second-rounders in two trades and pick up a quality stop gap, plus some quality NHL players? Put another way, why pay one guy $6 million in the hopes he becomes a first-line center when you can pay another guy $2 million who you know what you're getting out of while helping you to meet the cap floor, picking up a slew of assets along the way? Well I don’t know if it’s shooting your shot early. Cirelli is 23 and an a blossoming NHLer. You said it yourself, they have a stacked system talent wise. Sometimes too many picks means you’re never committing to any actual talent since it’s still a gamble what you get. Plus it’s not like Tampa was in much of a position to match anything let alone an offer blowing Cirelli out of the water. Assuming he would have taken a 6.5m deal for 5 years, you are committing to a talent you know will be around for a while and, at least in my opinion, isn’t a product of having elevated stats due to the talent he’s around. I actually believe he will be a top 2 way center in this league very soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted December 28, 2020 Author Share Posted December 28, 2020 The point I'm making is they're not really in a position to be spending on premiere players when they likely have their own coming through the system. For the same reason the Rangers weren't in on puck moving defenders or right wings. They can't all get paid (by you), so if you believe in your own guys, why put immovable hurdles in front of them? Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 Well I don’t know if it’s shooting your shot early. Cirelli is 23 and an a blossoming NHLer. You said it yourself, they have a stacked system talent wise. Sometimes too many picks means you’re never committing to any actual talent since it’s still a gamble what you get. Plus it’s not like Tampa was in much of a position to match anything let alone an offer blowing Cirelli out of the water. Assuming he would have taken a 6.5m deal for 5 years, you are committing to a talent you know will be around for a while and, at least in my opinion, isn’t a product of having elevated stats due to the talent he’s around. I actually believe he will be a top 2 way center in this league very soon. Cirelli was never really a top tier scorer at any level. I absolutely think his offensive success at the NHL level is mostly due to his situation and other teams worrying about Kuch, Stammer, Point, etc. He's a very good player but not ~$6M good right now, when you see what guys like Boeser and Point signed for. I also can't imagine why, if you're Cirelli, you'd would want to lose in Ottawa for $6.5M minus Canadien taxes when you can win in Tampa for $4.8 with no state tax...You likely bring home close to the same paycheck with a way better living situation. As others have said, a team can offer sheet all they want, but a player has to sign the offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted December 28, 2020 Author Share Posted December 28, 2020 Cirelli was never really a top tier scorer at any level. I absolutely think his offensive success at the NHL level is mostly due to his situation and other teams worrying about Kuch, Stammer, Point, etc. He's a very good player but not ~$6M good right now, when you see what guys like Boeser and Point signed for. I also can't imagine why, if you're Cirelli, you'd would want to lose in Ottawa for $6.5M minus Canadien taxes when you can win in Tampa for $4.8 with no state tax...You likely bring home close to the same paycheck with a way better living situation. As others have said, a team can offer sheet all they want, but a player has to sign the offer. Agreed on who Cirelli probably is (and isn't). When all of Twitter are fawning over themselves over the player and the points aren't there, buyer beware. Duclair, Koekoek, Clendening, Anathesiou, etc. Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keirik Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 Cirelli was never really a top tier scorer at any level. I absolutely think his offensive success at the NHL level is mostly due to his situation and other teams worrying about Kuch, Stammer, Point, etc. He's a very good player but not ~$6M good right now, when you see what guys like Boeser and Point signed for. I also can't imagine why, if you're Cirelli, you'd would want to lose in Ottawa for $6.5M minus Canadien taxes when you can win in Tampa for $4.8 with no state tax...You likely bring home close to the same paycheck with a way better living situation. As others have said, a team can offer sheet all they want, but a player has to sign the offer. Well that’s looking in hindsight. I was suggesting them offering it before Tampa had the wiggle room to offer what they did. 6.5 sounds better than no offer when Tampa had no space really. As for his production, personally I see him as a young Bergeron, but that’s just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 Well that?s looking in hindsight. I was suggesting them offering it before Tampa had the wiggle room to offer what they did. 6.5 sounds better than no offer when Tampa had no space really. As for his production, personally I see him as a young Bergeron, but that?s just my opinion.I'm sure Cirelli and his agent were in constant contact with Tampa and understood the process. He's still an RFA so he knew an offer from TB was coming at some point. Hard to compare Cirelli and Bergeron. Look at what Bergeron did in his first 3 years coming in at 18 vs. Cirelli playing his first full year at 20. Not even close. Then the injuries really slowed Bergeron down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keirik Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 I'm sure Cirelli and his agent were in constant contact with Tampa and understood the process. He's still an RFA so he knew an offer from TB was coming at some point. Hard to compare Cirelli and Bergeron. Look at what Bergeron did in his first 3 years coming in at 18 vs. Cirelli playing his first full year at 20. Not even close. Then the injuries really slowed Bergeron down. Well my opinion is my opinion. Bergeron started off much better. No doubting that. He eventually turned into a 65 or so point 2 way center. Personally, my opinion is that Cirelli will be that within a couple of years. Admittedly I’m very high on him though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 Well my opinion is my opinion. Bergeron started off much better. No doubting that. He eventually turned into a 65 or so point 2 way center. Personally, my opinion is that Cirelli will be that within a couple of years. Admittedly I’m very high on him though. Sure, anyone can have an opinion, you certainly can have yours...It's just not backed by the numbers. Also disagree with the bolded. Some average years after a devastating injury, but he's much better than a 65 point player. His last 3, as a 31-34 year old are phenomenal. Bergeron was working with much more scoring pedigree coming into the league than Cirelli. I'd actually say Cirelli is closer to Stepan, maybe a schoch better, but not Bergeron who is elite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keirik Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 Sure, anyone can have an opinion, you certainly can have yours...It's just not backed by the numbers. Also disagree with the bolded. Some average years after a devastating injury, but he's much better than a 65 point player. His last 3, as a 31-34 year old are phenomenal. Bergeron was working with much more scoring pedigree coming into the league than Cirelli. I'd actually say Cirelli is closer to Stepan, maybe a schoch better, but not Bergeron who is elite. Well, Cirelli is young. I don’t think any of his numbers at this age can tell who he is going to be in several years. Bergeron IS a 65 point player. Is that all he is? No, of course not, but just like the numbers don’t back my opinion of Cirelli since he’s still developing, the numbers do back that Bergeron is a 65 point player on average with very good defensive attributes that puts him in the selke yearly. Then again, Cirelli finished 4th in selke voting this past season so I think my comparison has some merit. I suppose in a couple of years we can revisit it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 Well, Cirelli is young. I don?t think any of his numbers at this age can tell who he is going to be in several years. Bergeron IS a 65 point player. Is that all he is? No, of course not, but just like the numbers don?t back my opinion of Cirelli since he?s still developing, the numbers do back that Bergeron is a 65 point player on average with very good defensive attributes that puts him in the selke yearly. Then again, Cirelli finished 4th in selke voting this past season so I think my comparison has some merit. I suppose in a couple of years we can revisit it :)Bergeron is P/G past 3-4 years. Def not 65 point player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keirik Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 Bergeron is P/G past 3-4 years. Def not 65 point player. Really? So we ignore every other year now? 08/09 39 points in 64 games 09/10 52 points in 73 games 10/11 57 points in 80 games 11/12 64 points in 81 games 12/13 32 points in 42 games 13/14 62 points in 80 games 14/15 55 points in 81 games 15/16 68 points in 80 games 16/17 53 points in 79 games 17/18 63 points in 63 games 18/19 79 points in 65 games 19/20 56 points in 61 games That’s a whole lot of 50-70 point seasons in there. A career isn’t just a few seasons. Career wise he’s about a 60+ point player. Let’s be honest here and not cherry pick certain years. And Im not even sure what the issue is. Cirelli is 23. I don’t care as much what his pedigree is prior to the NHL. Both players have a career fortunately on very good teams. Both are two way players. One is proven over a career to be elite two way centers. The other, by my opinion, is projecting to also one day be in a similar conversation and was at a point to be plucked away from a cup winning cap strapped team. I never said he’s Bergeron now. I said that I believe he will take that next step to be hi, but at an age where he was attainable now and probably never will be again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 Really? So we ignore every other year now? 08/09 39 points in 64 games 09/10 52 points in 73 games 10/11 57 points in 80 games 11/12 64 points in 81 games 12/13 32 points in 42 games 13/14 62 points in 80 games 14/15 55 points in 81 games 15/16 68 points in 80 games 16/17 53 points in 79 games 17/18 63 points in 63 games 18/19 79 points in 65 games 19/20 56 points in 61 games That?s a whole lot of 50-70 point seasons in there. A career isn?t just a few seasons. Career wise he?s about a 60+ point player. Let?s be honest here and not cherry pick certain years. And Im not even sure what the issue is. Cirelli is 23. I don?t care as much what his pedigree is prior to the NHL. Both players have a career fortunately on very good teams. Both are two way players. One is proven over a career to be elite two way centers. The other, by my opinion, is projecting to also one day be in a similar conversation and was at a point to be plucked away from a cup winning cap strapped team. I never said he?s Bergeron now. I said that I believe he will take that next step to be hi, but at an age where he was attainable now and probably never will be again.Right. Bergeron is elite. There's nothing that suggests Cirelli is in that trajectory. Not past production, not current production. That's my point. So, yes you can say "I think he'll reach Bergeron level" but there's nothing that suggests he will is all I'm saying. I can say I think Stepan finds chemistry with Duclair and hits 75 points and Duke scores 40 goals... But nothing about past performance suggests that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keirik Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 There's nothing that suggests Cirelli is in that trajectory. Not past production, not current production. That's my point. So, yes you can say "I think he'll reach Bergeron level" but there's nothing that suggests he will is all I'm saying. . Besides having the 5th best +/- in the league, finishing 4th in the selke conversation, and having 44 points on pace for over 50 in just his second full season in the league on a team that was willing to dismantle a piece or two to keep him around. Let’s agree to disagree here and revisit this in a more appropriate time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 Besides having the 5th best +/- in the league, finishing 4th in the selke conversation, and having 44 points on pace for over 50 in just his second full season in the league on a team that was willing to dismantle a piece or two to keep him around. Let’s agree to disagree here and revisit this in a more appropriate time. None of this has anything to do with the Bergeron comparison, but sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keirik Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 None of this has anything to do with the Bergeron comparison, but sure. Lol okay then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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