Robin Lehner Attempting to 'fix' Eichel Situation

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Yeah sure, if you give up a guaranteed 30 million dollars you can do whatever you want.

You understand that's not a good solution tho?

He already made 32 million.

It's not an ideal solution no, but when talking about your health...it should be prioritized over money or a sport.

[BlairBettsBlocksEverything]

13 minutes ago, Pete said:

This doesn't equate, sports to real life. He's made $32M. He can retire tomorrow. I can't. 

Does Eichel really need to worry about having his deal terminated?

I mean that's not really the issue is it?

If he did go for the unapproved team surgery, theoretically he could. Not saying they would. What I am saying though, is that if he wasn't Jack Eichel, and wasn't their (former) franchise player, he would not have the same option. He's clearly been trying to convince the team to let him make the call for himself, and clearly, they haven't given him the go ahead. If they did, he would be healthy and ready for this season 

[Pete]

Just now, BlairBettsBlocksEverything said:

I mean that's not really the issue is it?

If he did go for the unapproved team surgery, theoretically he could. Not saying they would. What I am saying though, is that if he wasn't Jack Eichel, and wasn't their (former) franchise player, he would not have the same option. He's clearly been trying to convince the team to let him make the call for himself, and clearly, they haven't given him the go ahead. If they did, he would be healthy and ready for this season 

Is it the issue, no, but it makes your comparison moot. This is one of those cases where sports ≠ life of normal folks. 

I don't really know what would happen if he wasn't a star. But I do know that people need to be held accountable for their own actions/decisions/choices. Teams and players alike. 

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

6 minutes ago, Pete said:

He already made 32 million.

It's not an ideal solution no, but when talking about your health...it should be prioritized over money or a sport.

Of course, and that's what we're trying to say here. The health of the player should be prioritized over the sport, but its clearly not by the teams doctors.

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

Is it the issue, no, but it makes your comparison moot. This is one of those cases where sports ≠ life of normal folks. 

I don't really know what would happen if he wasn't a star. But I do know that people need to be held accountable for their own actions/decisions/choices. Teams and players alike. 

You were the one bringing in an example from your own life to begin with.

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Of course, and that's what we're trying to say here. The health of the player should be prioritized over the sport, but its clearly not by the teams doctors.

Not by most players either, apparently. 

Quote

You were the one bringing in an example from your own life to begin with.

You're totally confusing the context, so no. My employer doesn't determine who my doctor is. But these players all have a choice to do what Eichel is doing, if the prioritize their health over all else.

Here's the point, if a player is just blindly trusting a team doctor when it doesn't feel right, then it's just as much on the player as the doctor. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Pete

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

Not by most players either, apparently. 

You're totally confusing the context, so no. My employer doesn't determine who my doctor is. But these players all have a choice to do what Eichel is doing, if the prioritize their health over all else.

Here's the point, if a player is just blindly trusting a team doctor when it doesn't feel right, then it's just as much on the player as the doctor. 

What exactly do you mean by "have a choice to do what Eichel is doing"? Sit out and wait and (most likely) lose another season to the injury?

If Eichel's situation is your argument (and solution to this problem), its not a very good one. That situation is a total mess.

I agree that players need to take more responsibilty and care for their own body, but then it needs to be a way for them to do it. Sitting out an entire season is not an option for most of the players in league, because it may very well ruin their career.

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

What exactly do you mean by "have a choice to do what Eichel is doing"? Sit out and wait and (most likely) lose another season to the injury?

If Eichel's situation is your argument (and solution to this problem), its not a very good one. That situation is a total mess.

I agree that players need to take more responsibilty and care for their own body, but then it needs to be a way for them to do it. Sitting out an entire season is not an option for most of the players in league, because it may very well ruin their career.

Well then they aren't prioritizing their health over their career and that's on them.

I never said this was a good system. It's ridiculous that a player can't get a surgery he wants and a team can block it. But when I see Carcillo blaming doctors for clearing Montador to play...OK Montador could have said "Nope, I don't feel right, I'm not playing". But he didn't. He probably begged the doctors to clear him.

It's not a one sided problem. 

Also note Matthews got a 2nd opinion on his wrist aside from team doctors and he got his surgery. 

This is a cluster fuck all around. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Pete

[LindG1000]

6 minutes ago, Pete said:

Not by most players either, apparently. 

You're totally confusing the context, so no. My employer doesn't determine who my doctor is. But these players all have a choice to do what Eichel is doing, if the prioritize their health over all else.

Here's the point, if a player is just blindly trusting a team doctor when it doesn't feel right, then it's just as much on the player as the doctor. 

The point behind the point is that the player can seek as many opinions as they want, but the team has significant enough say over the matter to reject opinions that are not theirs. Which is a pretty significant issue, IMO.

Eichel is, for all intents and purposes, doing what you're saying he should do if he feels strongly. A kid like Nolan Patrick though - he's 19 or 20 when this is happening, he's been in the care and trust of team doctors his whole life - he doesn't know any better to seek secondary or tertiary opinions on things like "take these pills, they'll help". People he trusts telling him what's going to work best - even if it's not the right call - that's an influential thing.

[Pete]

4 minutes ago, G1000 said:

he's 19 or 20 when this is happening,

We don't know when this happened. It's also a poor excuse, IMHO. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Pete

[LindG1000]

Just now, Pete said:

We don't know when this happened. It's also a poor excuse, IMHO. 

It's also a poor argument to think that a kid who has spent his entire adolescent and adult life in the care and trust of team physicians would suddenly have a moment of mental clarity and wisdom in the midst of a TBI-induced syndrome and stop trusting people he's trusted for years. 

[Pete]

1 minute ago, G1000 said:

It's also a poor argument to think that a kid who has spent his entire adolescent and adult life in the care and trust of team physicians would suddenly have a moment of mental clarity and wisdom in the midst of a TBI-induced syndrome and stop trusting people he's trusted for years. 

Luckily you're not the arbiter of whats a "good" or "poor" argument. 

We'll agree to disagree. 

[BlairBettsBlocksEverything]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

We don't know when this happened. It's also a poor excuse, IMHO. 

well he missed the entire 19-20 season, when he was 21, with a migraine disorder. He also had at least one concussion before that, who knows if he had more (Im sure plenty go undiagnosed, especially in younger players playing juniors or even before that) so I don't think its absurd to think these drugs were being given to him in that time frame. Lets not harp on the 19 or 20 years old instead of 20 or 21 point though.

Look I think the point of this is being lost in the discussion. The main point of all of this, is that there is an issue in the league where players health is not being protected by people (doctors) who, given the circumstances, are supposed to be trusted to protect their health. That's pretty much what a team doctor is supposed to do right?

You are saying that if players don't trust their doctors they should get another opinion and do what they want. Fine. With that said though, players SHOULD be able to trust team doctors. But its those doctors that are not prioritizing the players health, giving them not prescribed drugs (in the patrick instance at least) in order to not address the health issues the player is facing. Also, the pressure that teams can exert on players can leave them with no options. If the feeling is that, if you don't blindly follow the teams orders regarding your own health, that you will face retaliation, then do you really have those options? 

 

 

[LindG1000]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

Luckily you're not the arbiter of whats a "good" or "poor" argument. 

We'll agree to disagree. 

Fair enough.

There's probably one thing we can agree on - there's a strong argument to investigate whatever the Flyers were doing, and probably get some good standards set in place leaguewide around player health and decisionmaking.

[Pete]

Just now, G1000 said:

Fair enough.

There's probably one thing we can agree on - there's a strong argument to investigate whatever the Flyers were doing, and probably get some good standards set in place leaguewide around player health and decisionmaking.

. 

I'm not even talking about the Patrick situation as much as I am the Montador situation.

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, BlairBettsBlocksEverything said:

well he missed the entire 19-20 season, when he was 21, with a migraine disorder. He also had at least one concussion before that, who knows if he had more (Im sure plenty go undiagnosed, especially in younger players playing juniors or even before that) so I don't think its absurd to think these drugs were being given to him in that time frame. Lets not harp on the 19 or 20 years old instead of 20 or 21 point though.

Look I think the point of this is being lost in the discussion. The main point of all of this, is that there is an issue in the league where players health is not being protected by people (doctors) who, given the circumstances, are supposed to be trusted to protect their health. That's pretty much what a team doctor is supposed to do right?

You are saying that if players don't trust their doctors they should get another opinion and do what they want. Fine. With that said though, players SHOULD be able to trust team doctors. But its those doctors that are not prioritizing the players health, giving them not prescribed drugs (in the patrick instance at least) in order to not address the health issues the player is facing. Also, the pressure that teams can exert on players can leave them with no options. If the feeling is that, if you don't blindly follow the teams orders regarding your own health, that you will face retaliation, then do you really have those options? 

 

 

To answer your last question first, if you are prioritizing your own health then 100% yes. There are always options. 

Regarding the rest of your post, I'm not even really talking about the Patrick situation. The thread has kind of turns into a catch-all.

My original reply was much more about Montador and Carcillo's tweets. 

[LindG1000]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

. 

I'm not even talking about the Patrick situation as much as I am the Montador situation.

I stand by my read on that situation - 10 years of progress changes the outcomes for him. Drastically. Hockey culture shifting around its acceptance and understanding of some injuries and our evolving knowledge on TBIs will make a difference for future players. Montador needed to have the wherewithal to just say no to coming back at some point or another, but who fucking knows what his head is like after that many hits.

[BlairBettsBlocksEverything]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

To answer your last question first, if you are prioritizing your own health then 100% yes. There are always options. 

Regarding the rest of your post, I'm not even really talking about the Patrick situation. The thread has kind of turns into a catch-all.

My original reply was much more about Montador and Carcillo's tweets. 

fair enough. Either way, this issue with team doctors and players realizing they can't always trust them has been coming to light more recently

Tarasenko was demanding a trade because of it as well. 

https://www.si.com/hockey/news/report-blues-tarasenko-demands-trade

***Well, as Rutherford reports, Tarasenko's desire to leave the only NHL city he's called home stems from a lack of trust between player and team. Tarasenko has undergone three separate shoulder surgeries over the past 28 months -- two of which, Rutherford says, were performed by Blues team doctors. The third surgery, however, was overseen by doctors that did not happen to be employed by the team, and reportedly uncovered some lingering ligament damage that had not been detected during the prior procedures. 

Obviously, that would be concerning to anyone, let alone a professional athlete who relies on their body to be the source of their livelihood. Couple that with Taraskenko's reported frustration over the lack of urgency displayed by the Blues' medical staff to perform further testing on his injured shoulder in the 2020 Playoff Bubble, which ultimately caused Taraskeno to leave early, and all reports indicate that this relationship is damaged beyond repair. ****

 

The question is, how long has it been going on that players have had their careers threatened by team doctors who were not doing their job, and how much damage has been done because of it

The NHLPA has to make this a big issue in the next CBA

[Valriera]

4 minutes ago, G1000 said:

I stand by my read on that situation - 10 years of progress changes the outcomes for him. Drastically. Hockey culture shifting around its acceptance and understanding of some injuries and our evolving knowledge on TBIs will make a difference for future players. Montador needed to have the wherewithal to just say no to coming back at some point or another, but who fucking knows what his head is like after that many hits.

Agree - there has been a lot of progress in this topic lately to the point where the question becomes “why didn’t you stand up for yourself?” More often than “did you even have the ability to?” 

[Long live the King]

39 minutes ago, BlairBettsBlocksEverything said:

fair enough. Either way, this issue with team doctors and players realizing they can't always trust them has been coming to light more recently

Tarasenko was demanding a trade because of it as well. 

https://www.si.com/hockey/news/report-blues-tarasenko-demands-trade

***Well, as Rutherford reports, Tarasenko's desire to leave the only NHL city he's called home stems from a lack of trust between player and team. Tarasenko has undergone three separate shoulder surgeries over the past 28 months -- two of which, Rutherford says, were performed by Blues team doctors. The third surgery, however, was overseen by doctors that did not happen to be employed by the team, and reportedly uncovered some lingering ligament damage that had not been detected during the prior procedures. 

Obviously, that would be concerning to anyone, let alone a professional athlete who relies on their body to be the source of their livelihood. Couple that with Taraskenko's reported frustration over the lack of urgency displayed by the Blues' medical staff to perform further testing on his injured shoulder in the 2020 Playoff Bubble, which ultimately caused Taraskeno to leave early, and all reports indicate that this relationship is damaged beyond repair. ****

 

The question is, how long has it been going on that players have had their careers threatened by team doctors who were not doing their job, and how much damage has been done because of it

The NHLPA has to make this a big issue in the next CBA

Ok.  Now separate the team docs purposely harming players vs. human error or the player having a poor response to the routine surgery.  (Re: Tarasenko) 

[BlairBettsBlocksEverything]

1 minute ago, Long live the King said:

Ok.  Now separate the team docs purposely harming players vs. human error or the player having a poor response to the routine surgery.  (Re: Tarasenko) 

"the lack of urgency displayed by the Blues' medical staff to perform further testing on his injured shoulder in the 2020 Playoff Bubble, which ultimately caused Taraskeno to leave early, and all reports indicate that this relationship is damaged beyond repair."

this is the important part. The doctors, at least in Tarasenko's opinion, failed to do their job initially and the team didn't.

Tarasenko's issue obviously isn't as serious as the others that were cited. Still, it shows a pattern, over several teams (and we can't reasonably think that this issue is limited to only the cases being made public, on only these teams) that team doctors across the league are failing to protect player health

[Long live the King]

So Tarasenko was unhappy with the team doctor.  Were the Blues docs acting maliciously?

Edited October 4, 2021 by Long live the King

[Albatrosss]

2 hours ago, Valriera said:

If one car mechanic looks at your transmission and says you need to pay him ten grand to fix it, do you pay?

that's a crazy analogy.  a closer one would be--if you're a race car driver and team's mechanic tells you its a transmission, you'd believe his expertise.  He's your team's mechanic.  

[Pete]

8 minutes ago, CCCP said:

that's a crazy analogy.  a closer one would be--if you're a race car driver and team's mechanic tells you its a transmission, you'd believe his expertise.  He's your team's mechanic.  

Right. But you've been driving for 15 years and you know when the transmission isn't right.

[BlairBettsBlocksEverything]

5 minutes ago, Long live the King said:

So Tarasenko was unhappy with the team doctor.  Were the Blues docs acting maliciously?

I didnt say they did.

Just that there's a pattern emerging where players feel like they can't trust their doctors, and that these doctors are not acting in their interest. 

In an isolated incident, I'm fine saying for sure that this was just a hiccup. In the context of this larger pattern though, it wouldn't be an unreasonable opinion for the players to say that NHL team's medical staffs have been failing them. 

[Pete]

Feels like it would be fair for every major injury that the team doctor's opinion should be corroborated by an outside 3rd party opinion.