Time for a Lafreniere Reset

[Keirik]

2 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Why would you want mediocrity all those years? If he's mediocre or less until his 3rd contract the Rangers have wasted time and resources/ assets to get to that point and these players won't magically turn it around at that time either.  

I didn’t say we would want it. I’m saying cap wise. Kind of a big difference. 

The year he’s up for his new rfa deal we have 50m cap space tied up in Ziby, Bread, Kreider, Fox, Trouba, Shesty and that’s not including the re-up of Kakko next year, a 2C , etc and everyone else. The cap ceiling likely isn’t going anywhere before his third contract with this Covid mess still around. 
 

 

[The Dude]

Maybe we see something from him with the increased work load of Panarin being out. 

[The Dude]

2 minutes ago, Keirik said:

I didn’t say we would want it. I’m saying cap wise. Kind of a big difference. 

The year he’s up for his new rfa deal we have 50m cap space tied up in Ziby, Bread, Kreider, Fox, Trouba, Shesty and that’s not including the re-up of Kakko next year, a 2C , etc and everyone else. The cap ceiling likely isn’t going anywhere before his third contract with this Covid mess still around. 
 

 

You're trying to put a silver lining on a situation we do NOT want.

 

If he remains at this pace until his 3rd contract, he is an absolute  bust and this team will be in big trouble because of it. This ontop of Kakko likely being of the same ilk. 

 

The Rangers need Lafreniere and Kakko to be serious contributing factors on the ice ASAP, so they can have the best team afforded to them on thie ice. If those 2 aren't difference makers, the Rangers will go nowhere. Yes, that is a lot to pin on them,  but that is the path management has chosen.  All or nothing with these 2.

I honestly can't blame them for choosing this path (as much as I bitch about Buchnevich). It looked good on paper.  Especially with Kravstov in the mix. But they aren't getting much out of these 2 and I don't see much more being wrung out of them. 

 

 

[-ERIK-]

13 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Maybe we see something from him with the increased work load of Panarin being out. 

He played good yesterday ,much more engaged,one of his more complete games, just didn't score.

He should get some more chance's the next couple games.

Rather see him get the chances than Chytil who's done even less or Gauthier who can't finish.

 

 

[josh]

2 hours ago, Ozzy said:

I don't even want to use Chytil or his linemates as an excuse at this point.  He should, and will be able to play with any of them, and make them better by just being on their line.

 

He can do that!  ...and he will do that at some point.  Right now he's playing solid 2 way hockey, and seems to be learning the defensive part of the game.  He's not really hurting us defensively out there, and has made some pretty good defensive plays of late.  I actually like the fact that he's taken to the defensive part of the game!

 

...and he's on pace to score about 20, which isn't lighting the world on fire, but I truly believe eventually he will.

He tried. Only so many times you can put the puck on Chytil or Gauthier's stick and all they have to do is shoot.

And that's when they are open and in shooting position, which is extremely rare.

 

Simply put, the eye-test shows he already an NHL player at 20 years old. You notice there is no talk about his defensive game, his support play, work on the boards, outlet passes, etc etc. It's frustration with lack of production, which is then being exaggerated into thinking he's an AHL player.

 

And he played 2 really good games. Noticeably good. If someone is complaining, its because they want to complain.

[Phil]

The silver lining to the incredibly slow starts to Lafrenière and Kakko is that they won't have arb rights. It sucks something awful to get so little out of an ELC for "can't-miss" top-of-draft players, but that lack of impact can at least have a mitigating affect on their next contracts.

[BlairBettsBlocksEverything]

26 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Like Jack Hughes  right?

Well, Hughes has already had more success than Laf has. Also, he signed a super long term deal. Laf could be had pretty cheaply on a 3 year deal at this rate, unless the rest of this year and next season, he completely breaks out (Which I would gladly welcome as well)

[Keirik]

2 minutes ago, The Dude said:

You're trying to put a silver lining on a situation we do NOT want.

 

If he remains at this pace until his 3rd contract, he is an absolute  bust and this team will be in big trouble because of it. This ontop of Kakko likely being of the same ilk. 

 

The Rangers need Lafreniere and Kakko to be serious contributing factors on the ice ASAP, so they can have the best team afforded to them on thie ice. If those 2 aren't difference makers, the Rangers will go nowhere. Yes, that is a lot to pin on them,  but that is the path management has chosen.  All or nothing with these 2.

I honestly can't blame them for choosing this path (as much as I bitch about Buchnevich). It looked good on paper.  Especially with Kravstov in the mix. But they aren't getting much out of these 2 and I don't see much more being wrung out of them. 

 

 

I’m not doing anything except simply pointing out MATHEMATICS in a cap era. Luckily Alf could be bridged after next season but it’s still incredibly tight especially if Kakko gets any sort of raise. 

[RichieNextel305]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

I don't see this ending the way you do. Typically you see flashes of brilliance by now. The ability to take over a shift would be promising. He's yet to do it man. And all the positive Ju Ju  that some people are throwing around is only delaying the inevitable. 

 

I don't see the complete player. I see a player desperately trying to stay in the lineup and making a defensive play or 2 to keep that going. If the Rangers had ANY forward depth an argument for scratching him could seriously be made. 

 

I think now more than ever they absolutely need him to figure it out.  This isn't supposed to be a project player. He was to be the surest of the sure thing. If he's NOT an offensive force,  they need to figure that out now. His and Kakkos next contract are vital decisions for this franchise.  This ho hum, wait and see, positive in negative thought process is only going to make this harder, when these 2 use the recent Hughes contract as a bargaining point.

 

I'd rather they produce ASAP like they should, and get paid, than not produce and get paid solely on draft position like Hughes just did. It's gotta get figured out sooner than you think. 

 

I mean that's my take on it. Be as patient as you want. My patience is wearing VERY thin and as usual I will vent about it. 

 

 

I totally understand.

I think by now we all expected more from him, so you’re not wrong by any stretch of the imagination.

 

But again, he still is young. He’s only 20. He has a lot of growing still to do. I don’t think the Rangers are even remotely close to giving up on him just yet.

[LindG1000]

9 minutes ago, BlairBettsBlocksEverything said:

Well, Hughes has already had more success than Laf has. Also, he signed a super long term deal. Laf could be had pretty cheaply on a 3 year deal at this rate, unless the rest of this year and next season, he completely breaks out (Which I would gladly welcome as well)

Hughes is also way more important to the Devils - current and future - than Lafreniere or Kakko are to us. 

[The Dude]

25 minutes ago, Keirik said:

I’m not doing anything except simply pointing out MATHEMATICS in a cap era. Luckily Alf could be bridged after next season but it’s still incredibly tight especially if Kakko gets any sort of raise. 

Your mathematics puts the Rangers in a position where their 1 OA pick has developed so little in the time frame you are suggesting, that it probably is a better idea to walk away from Lafreniere or to have traded him already. That is not the situation anyone should hope for.  You originally were referring to his 3rd contract. 

 

You want production from him and Kakko ASAP. That's all I'm saying.

 

The silver lining of being able to MATHMATICALLY afford them 2 contracts from now, will mean they didn't pan out. I don't care about the math you are trying to prop up as a good thing.

 

That situation will not be good for the Rangers. These players will not have panned out STILL and you're suggesting they keep them at that time despite their lack of production just because they can fit them under the cap. They will be BUSTS if the Rangers can afford these 2 on their 3rd contracts.  I'm nervous about their 2nd. See Jack Hughes for reference. 

 

 

[Keirik]

2 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Your mathematics puts the Rangers in a position where their 1 OA pick has developed so little in the time frame you are suggesting, that it probably is a better idea to walk away from Lafreniere or to have traded him already. That is not the situation anyone should hope for.  You originally were referring to his 3rd contract. 

 

You want production from him and Kakko ASAP. That's all I'm saying.

 

The silver lining of being able to MATHMATICALLY afford them 2 contracts from now, will mean they didn't pan out. I don't care about the math you are trying to prop up as a good thing.

 

That situation will not be good for the Rangers. These players will not have panned out STILL and you're suggesting they keep them at that time despite their lack of production just because they can fit them under the cap. They will be BUSTS if the Rangers can afford these 2 on their 3rd contracts.  I'm nervous about their 2nd. See Jack Hughes for reference. 

 

 

Honestly, you’re making absolutely no sense and keep harping on one simple thing and going wild with it making giant leaps as if I’m wanting this. I’m not even sure how to respond to “my mathematics” lol. No one is saying they prefer either of them to not produce. No one is saying they hope anything other than both of them being top players eventually in this league and on the Rangers. 

 

here, I’ll simplify it and put it in all caps since you like making points that way. WE ALL WANT PRODUCTION FROM KAKKO AND ALF ASAP. 
 

   We don’t 100% need the production today however. Luckily, we have a team that can compete and still have patience with him. Double edge sword that part of the growth might be slowed due to his place on the depth chart. The other part is that his depth is where it is because of the lack of separating himself from others when given the chance. He’s been progressing. It’s just been slower than we would all like it to be. 
 

 

 

 

[LindG1000]

12 minutes ago, Keirik said:

Honestly, you’re making absolutely no sense and keep harping on one simple thing and going wild with it making giant leaps as if I’m wanting this. I’m not even sure how to respond to “my mathematics” lol. No one is saying they prefer either of them to not produce. No one is saying they hope anything other than both of them being top players eventually in this league and on the Rangers. 

 

here, I’ll simplify it and put it in all caps since you like making points that way. WE ALL WANT PRODUCTION FROM KAKKO AND ALF ASAP. 
 

   We don’t 100% need the production today however. Luckily, we have a team that can compete and still have patience with him. Double edge sword that part of the growth might be slowed due to his place on the depth chart. The other part is that his depth is where it is because of the lack of separating himself from others when given the chance. He’s been progressing. It’s just been slower than we would all like it to be. 
 

 

 

 

It's 100% this. We don't need Laf and Kakko to be superstars today. We need them to be superstars when Panarin and Zib and Kreider stop producing. 

Right now, we need them to show growth in that direction - which....we're not really seeing either. Concerning, but not yet a debacle.

[The Dude]

50 minutes ago, josh said:

He tried. Only so many times you can put the puck on Chytil or Gauthier's stick and all they have to do is shoot.

And that's when they are open and in shooting position, which is extremely rare.

 

Simply put, the eye-test shows he already an NHL player at 20 years old. You notice there is no talk about his defensive game, his support play, work on the boards, outlet passes, etc etc. It's frustration with lack of production, which is then being exaggerated into thinking he's an AHL player.

 

And he played 2 really good games. Noticeably good. If someone is complaining, its because they want to complain.

Weird. I've only seen Lafreniere feed himself fucking icecream.

 

The kid does absolutely nothing with the puck. I refuse to blame his linemates as THEY atleast go to the net with or without the puck or atleast extend plays with board work. Lafreniere is weak on the puck and dishes it to NOBODY because he fails to hold the puck for any period of time to let any play develop.  He NEVER comes out of a board battle with possession of the puck, and he certainly doesn't support any sort of offense. He's the LEAST likely to take the puck to the net or try to do anything creative. 

 

He had 2 good games? He had 3 SOG in those games. One game getting almost 18 minutes of icetime on both the 2nd line and the top PP line. NO Chytil or Gauthier excuses for his no show offensively again. 

 

Noticeable only for 2 defensive efforts and maybe a decent battle along the boards. Yeah. Player of the year shit right there. LOL. 

 

Not buying the fools gold here. He really needs to show something in the next few games. I'm glad he gets the opportunity.  I want him to. 

 

[Sharpshooter]

We're just happy when Lafreniere is noticeable and when Kakko gets shots on goal. lol 

[The Dude]

30 minutes ago, Keirik said:

Honestly, you’re making absolutely no sense and keep harping on one simple thing and going wild with it making giant leaps as if I’m wanting this. I’m not even sure how to respond to “my mathematics” lol. No one is saying they prefer either of them to not produce. No one is saying they hope anything other than both of them being top players eventually in this league and on the Rangers. 

 

here, I’ll simplify it and put it in all caps since you like making points that way. WE ALL WANT PRODUCTION FROM KAKKO AND ALF ASAP. 
 

   We don’t 100% need the production today however. Luckily, we have a team that can compete and still have patience with him. Double edge sword that part of the growth might be slowed due to his place on the depth chart. The other part is that his depth is where it is because of the lack of separating himself from others when given the chance. He’s been progressing. It’s just been slower than we would all like it to be. [/quote]
 

Well that's where we disagree. I think they need production from them now, while they can afford them. 

 

I'm making perfect sense. You're trying to make sunshine and rainbows out of the legit possibilities of these players not producing.

 

Yes, it would be so awesome if Lafreniere and Kakko produced so little over the next 3 years that the Rangers would be able to afford them. Is that what you want me to say. That's what you inferred to. How it would be a plus if Lafreniere didn't reach his potential because only then would they be able to afford his 3rd contract. 

 

You said it. Not me man. 

 

Make that make sense. You said it. What would be good about that situation, besides the math part. Because the hockey part and the success part is null and void in your scenario.  
 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by The Dude

[Scott]

1 hour ago, G1000 said:

It's 100% this. We don't need Laf and Kakko to be superstars today. We need them to be superstars when Panarin and Zib and Kreider stop producing. 

Right now, we need them to show growth in that direction - which....we're not really seeing either. Concerning, but not yet a debacle.

 

That's where I disagree if they want to become serious cup contenders I think they need to have all the pieces clicking. Not having the luxury of time in the sense of there's no hurry for Kakko and Load to pick it up drastically while the prime years of Panarin, Zib and Kreider fly by, I don't think it's one or the other for this team to seriously compete. I think it all has to fall into place. I don't think anybody's definition of success for a 1 and 2OA is years of hoping they grow into ok 200 foot players while your prime guys fade before Load and Kakko step up into production leaders.  We've already seen the combination of Zib, Panarin and Kreider come up short a few times up front. 

Edited January 3, 2022 by jsrangers

[The Dude]

3 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

We're just happy when Lafreniere is noticeable and when Kakko gets shots on goal. lol 

 

I actually see improvement in Kakko from time to time. Last night he should have had atleast one goal had Zibanejad not had puck luck.  Kakko was right there at the side of the net waiting for a pass or a rebound.  He's carrying the puck with confidence and is strong along the boards.  I'd like to see him shoot more, and that may come with Zibanejad catching fire.  

[Sharpshooter]

1 minute ago, The Dude said:

 

I actually see improvement in Kakko from time to time. Last night he should have had atleast one goal had Zibanejad not had puck luck.  Kakko was right there at the side of the net waiting for a pass or a rebound.  He's carrying the puck with confidence and is strong along the boards.  I'd like to see him shoot more, and that may come with Zibanejad catching fire.  

Oh, I've been happier with Kakko this year for sure. He certainly has looked better, but still needs to do more, even if I was being a bit facetious in my post. You smell what I'm cooking.

[Keirik]

2 minutes ago, The Dude said:

 

Once again, 100% incorrect. My only point was, and stay with me on this one, is that if Alf and kakko, were producing at a superstar pace, we would be in a bad spot cap wise as early as this offseason when kakko is a rfa. No arb rights so he can be bridged but fox was as well and we chose not to. Now is it a problem we all would life to have? Yup. Is it a problem we need to have right now in order to compete? Nope. Take a gander at the standings. 

 

Besides, all of this is moot on your part. They aren't performing at a superstar 1oa/2oa pick and luckily for us, we haven't needed to depend on that for success thus far. 

 

[Pete]

18 minutes ago, G1000 said:

It's 100% this. We don't need Laf and Kakko to be superstars today. We need them to be superstars when Panarin and Zib and Kreider stop producing. 

Right now, we need them to show growth in that direction - which....we're not really seeing either. Concerning, but not yet a debacle.

This is a bit of...I don't know if I'd call it revisionist history or what, but I remember the days we landed those lottery picks and everyone talked about how unstoppable we'd be with Panarin, Z, Kreider, AND the kids.

 

Now we've walked that back to "Well the kids just need to grow, not actually contribute in any kind of way".

[Pete]

1 hour ago, josh said:

He tried. Only so many times you can put the puck on Chytil or Gauthier's stick and all they have to do is shoot.

And that's when they are open and in shooting position, which is extremely rare.

 

Simply put, the eye-test shows he already an NHL player at 20 years old. You notice there is no talk about his defensive game, his support play, work on the boards, outlet passes, etc etc. It's frustration with lack of production, which is then being exaggerated into thinking he's an AHL player.

 

And he played 2 really good games. Noticeably good. If someone is complaining, its because they want to complain.

I can easily say if someone is satisfied, it's because they want to be.

 

We're talking about board play and and play away from the puck from the #1OA pick. the issue is that it's cart before horse. All that shit can be learned, and integrated into dynamic offensive play, i.e. Barzal buying into Trotz.

 

This kid is showing absolutely no offensive awareness or skills. If you think that's going to be taught, it's not.

[The Dude]

4 minutes ago, Keirik said:

Once again, 100% incorrect. My only point was, and stay with me on this one, is that if Alf and kakko, were producing at a superstar pace, we would be in a bad spot cap wise as early as this offseason when kakko is a rfa. No arb rights so he can be bridged but fox was as well and we chose not to. Now is it a problem we all would life to have? Yup. Is it a problem we need to have right now in order to compete? Nope. Take a gander at the standings. 

 

Besides, all of this is moot on your part. They aren't performing at a superstar 1oa/2oa pick and luckily for us, we haven't needed to depend on that for success thus far. 

 

Well I guess you'll be happy with being ousted in the 2nd round  because the Rangers have 3 forwards they can legit rely on to support a winner.

 

Good job. You can hang your hat on the "we made the playoffs " hook . Yippee!

 

I'd rather win and have the deepest team NOW.  As planned (that's why they got rid of 89..). 

 

Sorry about the caps. I know it bothers you. 

 

Bah. Atleast we can afford the 1st and 2nd overall when they are finally deemed busts.  Awesome.  Yay!

 

[The Dude]

15 minutes ago, jsrangers said:

 

That's where I disagree if they want to become serious cup contenders I think they need to have all the pieces clicking. Not having the luxury of time in the sense of there's no hurry for Kakko and Load to pick it up drastically while the prime years of Panarin, Zib and Kreider fly by, I don't think it's one or the other for this team to seriously compete. I think it all has to fall into place. I don't think anybody's definition of success for a 1 and 2OA is years of hoping they grow into ok 200 foot players while your prime guys fade before Lod and Kakko step up into production leaders.  We've seen the combination of Zib, Panarin and Kreider come up short a few times up front. 

These players have played together many years prior and what were the results? They are basically running the same lines minus a ppg player and have a new coach and a better record.  How far can the core that's been here carry them without the support they need to be that much better? 

 

Bottom line. Sooner rather than later these kids need to produce. The window isn't there in3-4 years. This year and next is likely all you'll get out of a Gallant run team, much less a team that has been together as long as the core has already been. 

[Keirik]

3 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Well I guess you'll be happy with being ousted in the 2nd round  because the Rangers have 3 forwards they can legit rely on to support a winner.

 

Good job. You can hang your hat on the "we made the playoffs " hook . Yippee!

 

I'd rather win and have the deepest team NOW.  As planned (that's why they got rid of 89..). 

 

Sorry about the caps. I know it bothers you. 

 

Bah. Atleast we can afford the 1st and 2nd overall when they are finally deemed busts.  Awesome.  Yay!

 

Show me exactly where I said I'll be happy being bounced in round whatever. Show me. Exactly where I said that. You're literally making up an argument no one said. 

 

  I think I'm done climbing a mountain to argue with an echo. I'll hang my hat on that.