Time for a Lafreniere Reset

[BrooksBurner]

On 3/28/2022 at 8:17 PM, The Dude said:

I've shot on Lafreniere for most of the season.  But he's finally showing some signs of being a player that can do things on his own. He's definitely holding the puck longer and making some high skill decisions with it instead of treating the puck like a grenade. More one on one play, more high quality shots. Hopefully he's turning that corner. 

 

3 hours ago, The Dude said:

It was a sweet goal. But... I mean. Like...... 

 

It was the first we've ever seen anything like that from him. I'm not expecting more of that. Let's not act like he's arrived as St Fatso. Saint of beautiful goals. I'm treating it as "Every dog has its day". Nobody. Nothing... has been holding him back but himself. He's definitely improved and his numbers are a bit more respectable compared to last year and the first 1/2 of this season. 

 

The Rangers seriously need this cat to be legit. My confidence in him has risen. But I'm not up there with thinking he has broke out and his stardom is around the corner. Right now, he doesn't suck and isn't a total bust. I expected more by now. We'll see.

 

Yeah, agreed. But I've said it before, and so have you, he was starting to show signs recently before he slipped back down (and actually out of the lineup for a game). Then he comes back and we see this...more to come? Hope so.

[BrooksBurner]

I'm pretty confident Lafreniere, at worst, will be a 30 goal/60 point player, with potential for a lot more. I'm way more concerned about Kakko.

[The Dude]

1 hour ago, br-avery said:

what prospects?On our team?

Whether we think he's earned it or not he gets a pretty low amount of ice time

Stutzte gets 18 a game and plays on top PP

Even Hughes his second year got 19 mins a game

I said any player and any prospect. Yes, the Rangers have had prospects and young players on the roster for 2 years now.

 

That guy drafted the year prior to Lafreniere.... # 2 OA.. You know... Kakko? Dude had never really got any shots with the top lines. Chytil??? Kravstov??? Or even Gauthier? 

 

Again. When Lafreniere got minutes with the top lines, on multiple occasions he didn't do much with those opportunities. To say he never got these chances, is covering up for his not so good play when he was infact given the chance. 

 

He's gotten chances! More than anyone else not named Hunt. What's the argument here? This is fact. 

 

 

[The Dude]

1 hour ago, RangersIn7 said:

I think you misread that one man.

Just saying… it’s a general you. Not a specific one. 
 

But if we’re discussing it… fine.

 

 

Lets talks about top of the draft prospects as they enter the NHL.

 

They don’t play on contending teams typically. They don’t play on the 3rd line. They don’t play with bottom-6 players. They don’t play 13:54 a night. 
They don’t get denied PP time. 
 

You’re saying you want more.

Yeah. Me too. I get it. 
Look at the why. 
 

He’s developing under very different circumstances than one normally would as a 1OVA. 
 

That said… he absolutely has stuff to work on too. 
 

Slow your roll. 
 

He’s fine. 

He's fine. He was just a healthy scratch.   

 

His development and production should be through the roof if you want to compare the role he is given VS any top prospect on a shitty team.  He has absolutely zero pressure on him. He mostly gets OZ starts. He mainly plays against a 3rd or 4th line. Likely to match up against teams worst D pairing.   Fuckin kid is on easy street and hasn't carried his line or shown any flashes of dominance. 

 

Not slowing any roll. 

 

He's should be and should have been doing more all along. 1 OA. Not 10th OA. There's a legit gripe here. 

[Phil]

1 hour ago, rmc51 said:

I'm pretty confident Lafreniere, at worst, will be a 30 goal/60 point player, with potential for a lot more. I'm way more concerned about Kakko.

 

Agreed. Not to make this thread about Kakko, but I was just coming here to say exactly this.

 

Lafreniere is showing the flashes and creative vision that Kakko isn't, and never has outside that one goal. It's rare a top-two pick busts, and Kakko isn't quite a bust (yet), but if this progression continues with Lafreniere, he may make it a lot easier to accept if Kakko does go sour.

[-ERIK-]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

I said any player and any prospect. Yes, the Rangers have had prospects and young players on the roster for 2 years now.

 

That guy drafted the year prior to Lafreniere.... # 2 OA.. You know... Kakko? Dude had never really got any shots with the top lines. Chytil??? Kravstov??? Or even Gauthier? 

 

Again. When Lafreniere got minutes with the top lines, on multiple occasions he didn't do much with those opportunities. To say he never got these chances, is covering up for his not so good play when he was infact given the chance. 

 

He's gotten chances! More than anyone else not named Hunt. What's the argument here? This is fact. 

 

 

 ice time has been inconsistent 

Facts are  the TOI

Even Lucas Raymond gets more ice time Than Laf

 

 

[The Dude]

4 hours ago, br-avery said:

 ice time has been inconsistent 

Facts are  the TOI

Even Lucas Raymond gets more ice time Than Laf

 

 

You're missing the point about the competition on the ice he's been playing against.  

 

These comparable names being thrown out there are facing better players as they get top line minutes. Lafreniere (and Chytil and Kakko) should be lighting up the lesser players they match up against.  He/they haven't. 

 

Atleast Lafreniere has had a bunch of opportunities with top lines. And like I said. He did very little with those opportunities.  Why does this fact get skipped? You can point to ice time averages and totals all you want. He has had chances with the top players on the team. Both last year and this year. 

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

"He's young, he needs more ice time and chances"

- He's not gonna get that unless he plays better
"He won't play better without better line mates"

- Playing with 3rd liners mean he also plays against 3rd liners, so he should put up more points either way

 

Repeat x100000

[Pete]

 This kid hasn't passed the eyeball test in terms of high end tools, sense, or talent.

 

His stats are remarkably similar from his rookie year. Where's the growth? 

 

If someone chose to lower their expectations because of outliers like, say, Tyler Seguin...then you're right to do that.

 

If you maintain he doesn't pass the eyeball test, or the production test, or the "where are the tools?" Test, then guess what? You're also right. Even Seguin had a 67 pt campaign in year 2.

 

Kakko and Lafreniere are both disappointing and the fact that they're BOTH disappointing means fans patience is shorter because one of them being good isn't taking the attention off the other being bad. 

[Cash or Czech]

10 hours ago, The Dude said:

I said any player and any prospect. Yes, the Rangers have had prospects and young players on the roster for 2 years now.

 

That guy drafted the year prior to Lafreniere.... # 2 OA.. You know... Kakko? Dude had never really got any shots with the top lines. Chytil??? Kravstov??? Or even Gauthier? 

 

Again. When Lafreniere got minutes with the top lines, on multiple occasions he didn't do much with those opportunities. To say he never got these chances, is covering up for his not so good play when he was infact given the chance. 

 

He's gotten chances! More than anyone else not named Hunt. What's the argument here? This is fact. 

 

 

 

Seriously? Kakko played with Panarin/Strome, Zibanejad/Kreider for basically the entirety of the past two seasons.

[The Dude]

2 hours ago, Cash or Czech said:

 

Seriously? Kakko played with Panarin/Strome, Zibanejad/Kreider for basically the entirety of the past two seasons.

This year yes.

 

He was mostly 3rd line last year and year prior.  Panarin refused to play with him last year. Buch was with Kreider and Zibanejad the two years prior.  I'm sorry.  You're incorrect. 

[Cash or Czech]

4 minutes ago, The Dude said:

This year yes.

 

He was mostly 3rd line last year and year prior.  Panarin refused to play with him last year. Buch was with Kreider and Zibanejad the two years prior.  I'm sorry.  You're incorrect. 

 

I'll take one out of your book. "Yeah...nah".

Edited April 19, 2022 by Cash or Czech

[-ERIK-]

7 hours ago, The Dude said:

You're missing the point about the competition on the ice he's been playing against.  

 

These comparable names being thrown out there are facing better players as they get top line minutes. Lafreniere (and Chytil and Kakko) should be lighting up the lesser players they match up against.  He/they haven't. 

 

Atleast Lafreniere has had a bunch of opportunities with top lines. And like I said. He did very little with those opportunities.  Why does this fact get skipped? You can point to ice time averages and totals all you want. He has had chances with the top players on the team. Both last year and this year. 

Hunt has had more games and chances in top 6 than Laf  this season

 

https://ibb.co/pKF2Y2t

 

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/frozenpool_linecombo.php?select=TF&teamf=NYR&games=2021-2022%3AR%3A99&period=ALL&situation=EV

 

Laf has barely had a sniff at all with Panarin this season

[BrooksBurner]

Sorry guys, but I really hate the “our 1OA hasn’t played enough with so-and-so” line so much. As if he shouldn’t be good enough to elevate other players, and requires the best players on the team to elevate him. Is this a 1OA or is it Dryden Hunt we are talking about?

 

I never expected him to do, with 3rd line minutes, what other 1OAs do with 1st line minutes, but I don’t see why he couldn’t have been a 40-50 point player with 3rd line minutes, even with no PP time, right off the bat. Everything else is just noise and excuses, quite frankly.

 

Like I already said, I’m pretty confident he’ll be a good player. I’m also disappointed it isn’t likely to come on the ELC when you most want to take advantage of cheap talent overperforming a contract. And after we just struck out getting anything remotely useful out of Kakko on his ELC.

[RangersIn7]

3 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

Sorry guys, but I really hate the “our 1OA hasn’t played enough with so-and-so” line so much. As if he shouldn’t be good enough to elevate other players, and requires the best players on the team to elevate him. Is this a 1OA or is it Dryden Hunt we are talking about?

 

I never expected him to do, with 3rd line minutes, what other 1OAs do with 1st line minutes, but I don’t see why he couldn’t have been a 40-50 point player with 3rd line minutes, even with no PP time, right off the bat. Everything else is just noise and excuses, quite frankly.

 

Like I already said, I’m pretty confident he’ll be a good player. I’m also disappointed it isn’t likely to come on the ELC when you most want to take advantage of cheap talent overperforming a contract. And after we just struck out getting anything remotely useful out of Kakko on his ELC.

That’s a fair argument. 

[Capt]

This is why it's very hard to "develop" players in NY.  The fans don't have the patience to do so.  They'd rather trade these kids before their 21st birthday's for a more complete player.  Both of these kids are going to be fine.  They are both going to be core players for this franchise.  Laf is going to produce 30/60 and while that may disappoint some, that along with his ability to seemingly come up bigger in pressure moments will be a very important piece to this team.  

Kakko on the other hand may never produce the offense that his draft slot dictates to some.  However he's a beast along the boards and is a fantastic defensive forward.  He's far from done growing and averaging 20/50 shouldn't be hard for him if he stays healthy, which has been his biggest problem.  If he produces anything near that and plays a great 200 foot game I'm happy with that and again those kind of guys are very hard to find.  

 

Fact is both of these kids have played their young careers through a pandemic.  They didn't see their families for a year because of it.  At 19 that could effect a young player.  At 20 and being from a foreign country that can't be easy.  Their conditioning to me has been their biggest problem.  I don't get the impression either player has an attitude problem or is lazy.  I take it more that they haven't learned how to train and perform like a pro because the NHL has been turned upside down for two years due tot he pandemic.  Laf has never had a normal training camp and Kakko had 1.  The pandemic is an excuse but a valid one.  You may not like it and may hope for them to overcome it.  That hasn't happened.  These are flesh and blood kids.  You have to give them time to grow.  Let's also not pretend that moving to NYC is the same as moving to Raleigh at 19 when you're coming from some town with a population of 2000.  

 

Laf I have zero concerns over and actually think he's already on his way to being the best in his draft as he should.  If he continues to develop

 

Kakko my main concern is health.  I don't see him ever being a top scorer.  I do see him as a complete player who's game suits playoff hockey.  As it does for Laf too.  Zegras maybe more skilled but I have a sneaky suspicion that Laf may just be the better big game player.

[Vodka Drunkenski]

Laf wins the Conn Smythe

[RJWantsTheCup]

3 minutes ago, Vodka Drunkenski said:

Laf wins the Conn Smythe

Lifetime free donuts for all Rangers fans at Dunkin.

[Long live the King]

2 hours ago, rmc51 said:

Sorry guys, but I really hate the “our 1OA hasn’t played enough with so-and-so” line so much. As if he shouldn’t be good enough to elevate other players, and requires the best players on the team to elevate him. Is this a 1OA or is it Dryden Hunt we are talking about?

 

I never expected him to do, with 3rd line minutes, what other 1OAs do with 1st line minutes, but I don’t see why he couldn’t have been a 40-50 point player with 3rd line minutes, even with no PP time, right off the bat. Everything else is just noise and excuses, quite frankly.

 

Like I already said, I’m pretty confident he’ll be a good player. I’m also disappointed it isn’t likely to come on the ELC when you most want to take advantage of cheap talent overperforming a contract. And after we just struck out getting anything remotely useful out of Kakko on his ELC.

 

If Gauthier could score he probably would be at 40 points right now...

[The Dude]

4 hours ago, br-avery said:

Hunt has had more games and chances in top 6 than Laf  this season

 

https://ibb.co/pKF2Y2t

 

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/frozenpool_linecombo.php?select=TF&teamf=NYR&games=2021-2022%3AR%3A99&period=ALL&situation=EV

 

Laf has barely had a sniff at all with Panarin this season

Hunt is an anomaly. I swear he's related to someone in management. He didn't deserve the chances he got.

 

I'd agree that Lafreniere should have been put in the spots Hunt was gifted. Absolutely.  Almost anyone should have gotten a look in that spot over Hunt. No reason why Lafreniere shouldn't have gotten a chance. 

 

I'll never say Lafreniere shouldn't be gifted a spot in the top 6, based solely on his draft position. I totally think you should give such players the best opportunity to get going in this league. With that said, I also don't think the spot he's played in most of this year and last is detrimental to his play. It's less pressure, it's better match ups and he should be able to carry his own line. 

 

We hear about how bad teams would throw such a player on their top lines. The thing is, these "bad" teams top lines are only as good as the Rangers 3rd line.  Is he going to produce more if a line of Chytil centering Lafreniere and Gauthier got 19 minutes a night? Because that's simiilar to the situation he'd be in if he were on a "bad" team. 

 

IMO sheltered minutes with favorable match ups should have yielded better numbers. BUT, like I said initially. The kid line hasn't had a chance to mesh. One of the 3 seems to always get hurt, when the potential for putting them together is there. That combination could seriously be dangerous and be exactly what each of them could need. If ONE of them can contribute regularly while together, it's a benefit for the Rangers. I think that's do-able.

 

While I will agree it'd be nice for these kids to be gifted a spot in the top six, if only to get them confidence and to get them going..... I don't agree that it's the only solution or a big detraction for their development. They should be better than what we've seen.

 

Is Lafreniere snapping out of it? I hope so man. The Rangers really need him to be a guy that can carry his own line. I feel like that was supposed to be a given. Not contingent on the situation, the minutes, the special teams. I was expecting a game breaker. That should shine through and force Gallant to use him more.  I mean 1 OAs are supposed to be that level, right off the bat. 

 

Hopefully he's turning that corner. 

[The Dude]

6 hours ago, Cash or Czech said:

 

I'll take one out of your book. "Yeah...nah".

Buchnevich DIDN'T play with Kreider and Zibanejad almost exclusively for the two years prior to this? KZB wasn't a thing? Panarin DIDN'T say he didn't want Kakko on his line last year, hence Blackwell being there? 

 

"Nah yeah" is more like it. 

 

Way to discuss this.  

[Capt]

Doesn't Laf have reasonably good numbers at even strength?  When a player gets next to zero power play ice time they are not going to put up the numbers you associate with top draft picks.  They are also going to have a hard time finding confidence in their offensive game.  You cannot just make that a side point.  The Rangers are thriving on the power play so it justifies them not playing their top picks there.  Patience.  Give either Kakko or Laf a regular spot on the power play and you increase their point production 20 points easy

[Capt]

But I'd rather win and not worry about the points they get.  

[The Dude]

3 hours ago, Capt said:

This is why it's very hard to "develop" players in NY.  The fans don't have the patience to do so.  They'd rather trade these kids before their 21st birthday's for a more complete player.  Both of these kids are going to be fine.  They are both going to be core players for this franchise.  Laf is going to produce 30/60 and while that may disappoint some, that along with his ability to seemingly come up bigger in pressure moments will be a very important piece to this team.  

Kakko on the other hand may never produce the offense that his draft slot dictates to some.  However he's a beast along the boards and is a fantastic defensive forward.  He's far from done growing and averaging 20/50 shouldn't be hard for him if he stays healthy, which has been his biggest problem.  If he produces anything near that and plays a great 200 foot game I'm happy with that and again those kind of guys are very hard to find.  

 

Fact is both of these kids have played their young careers through a pandemic.  They didn't see their families for a year because of it.  At 19 that could effect a young player.  At 20 and being from a foreign country that can't be easy.  Their conditioning to me has been their biggest problem.  I don't get the impression either player has an attitude problem or is lazy.  I take it more that they haven't learned how to train and perform like a pro because the NHL has been turned upside down for two years due tot he pandemic.  Laf has never had a normal training camp and Kakko had 1.  The pandemic is an excuse but a valid one.  You may not like it and may hope for them to overcome it.  That hasn't happened.  These are flesh and blood kids.  You have to give them time to grow.  Let's also not pretend that moving to NYC is the same as moving to Raleigh at 19 when you're coming from some town with a population of 2000.  

 

Laf I have zero concerns over and actually think he's already on his way to being the best in his draft as he should.  If he continues to develop

 

Kakko my main concern is health.  I don't see him ever being a top scorer.  I do see him as a complete player who's game suits playoff hockey.  As it does for Laf too.  Zegras maybe more skilled but I have a sneaky suspicion that Laf may just be the better big game player.

Splain how Lindgren, Miller, and Schneider are deemed must keeps by Ranger fans then? 

 

It's not a matter of lack of patience. We all just sat through an abnormal rebuild in which the team added top tier free agents to advance the core. Nobody was itching to deal prospects.  Hell, there was a time when a bunch of people wanted to do nothing but stockpile prospects and such. Continually stuck on getting younger, no matter who was advancing as players. 

 

We want top draft choices to produce like top draft choices.  That's normal.  That's not being impatient. 

[Capt]

Laf has more even strength goals than Buch, Patrick Kane, Svechnikov, Crosby, Tavares, Nylander, Hertl, Point, Hughes, Aho, Landeskog, Kadri, Raymond, Barkov, Pettersson, Laine, Giroux, Panarin, and Zegras.  

 

Not comparing him to any of them but at 20 years old he has more ES goals.  If he was ever given 1st pp unit for the entire season how many goals would he have?  I would think he'd be pushing 25 at least.