GDT [RS] (#49) Rangers vs. Detroit Red Wings — Bongo Time

[josh]

10 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

I could see Cuylle playing on the 4th line with Reaves and Rooney.  
Othamann, Goodrow and ? as a 3rd line.  That means Lafraniere and Kakko have to be top 6 wingers.  

They're both relentless shooters the team needs in the top 6, playing with all those guys that love to pass instead of shooting the puck. Othmann sits 5th in the OHL in SOG. Cuylle, playing less games, is at 15th, but both over 4 SOG per game. No one on the Rangers comes close to this. I think Kreider is tops around 3 per game, last I looked.

[RJWantsTheCup]

4 minutes ago, josh said:

They're both relentless shooters the team needs in the top 6, playing with all those guys that love to pass instead of shooting the puck. Othmann sits 5th in the OHL in SOG. Cuylle, playing less games, is at 15th, but both over 4 SOG per game. No one on the Rangers comes close to this. I think Kreider is tops around 3 per game, last I looked.

It will be a few seasons before either Othmann or Cuylle will possibly see top 6 minutes at LW unless the Rangers decide to surprise everyone and trade Panarin or Kreider.

[josh]

10 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

It will be a few seasons before either Othmann or Cuylle will possibly see top 6 minutes at LW unless the Rangers decide to surprise everyone and trade Panarin or Kreider.

It will be a few seasons before they are fully developed. That doesn't mean they can't be in the top 6. Especially when they're best skill is what the top 6 desperately needs, and complements the already successful players in the top 6.

[Ozzy]

32 minutes ago, josh said:

It will be a few seasons before they are fully developed. That doesn't mean they can't be in the top 6. Especially when they're best skill is what the top 6 desperately needs, and complements the already successful players in the top 6.

 

Between the young guns we have on D, and these charging Rhino's we have on the way up, this team is gonna be stacked in 3 seasons!

[LONG LONG LONG TIME FAN]

Uh... some person on this forum said " trap game ".  Well now, facts are facts & that's it in a nutshell. Losing to Detroit in a shootout? Oh boy!!

[LONG LONG LONG TIME FAN]

21 hours ago, Ozzy said:

 

TG!  = Titties Galore!!!

 

Where do I sign!  LOL

It's a grand idea for you to TG big oz... if you ever figure it out...

[Pete]

2 hours ago, Keirik said:

 

okay.you think I, being “willfully ignorant. “ very nice passive aggressive insult. 
 

  Here’s an article from oilers nation that contradicts whistles being put away. It’s from last year but it gets the point across. 

 

YEAR	PP/GP REG	PP/GP PLAYOFFS
2015	3.06	2.92
2016	3.11	3.27
2017	2.99	3.12
2018	3.04	3.23
2019	2.92	3.16
2020	2.97	3.51

    https://oilersnation.com/2021/05/13/playoff-preview-do-refs-put-whistles-away-in-nhl-playoffs/

 

also, most years, the team that wins the cup is right up there in the top 5 for playoff Powerplay %. Powerplays are a part of the postseason. 
20-21 winner 

tampa 3rd best pp% at 32.4

19-20 winner

tampa  5th best pp%  at 22.7

18-19 winner

Blues  12th pp% at 16.2 (this helps your point because obviously they are scoring 5 v 5 mostly)

17-18 winner

Caps 2 nd best pp% at 29.3

 

so 3 out of the last 4 cup winners had good powerplays in the playoffs

 

20/21 Tampa scored 75 goals in the playoffs with 22 being on the pp thus 29% of their goals were pp.

 

19/20 Tampa scored 77 goals in the playoffs with 17 being on the pp thus 22% of their goals were pp

 

18/19 Blues scored 75 goals in the playoffs with 13 being on the pp thus 17% of their goals were on the pp the exception to the rule

17/18 Caps scored 86 goals in the playoffs with 22 being on the pp thus 26% of their goals were on the pp

21/22 Rangers have scored 145 goals with 37 being on the pp thus 26% of their goals were on the pp.

  I think the trend in recent years is that power plays are still very much called in the postseason. More is let go for sure but teams are still getting power play chances and still relying on an average of 25% or so of their goals being on the pp 

 

 

 

Long post that doesn't address anything I said.

[Pete]

2 hours ago, Keirik said:

Sounds like Hank in 13/14

Didn't work out well for Hank. 

[Keirik]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Long post that doesn't address anything I said.

Nice dude. Was that remotely helpful to reply that? I took time out of my day to post. If you don’t like it you can move on but that’s not remotely necessary to rudely post that reply. 
 

[Keirik]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Didn't work out well for Hank. 

Yeah, I guess the finals and semi finals twice don’t qualify as long runs which is what you’re saying isn’t possible with you’re best player being a goalie standing on his head.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Keirik

[BrooksBurner]

I don’t really get statements like “if Igor has an off night the Rangers have a tough time winning”.

 

His off nights are incredibly few and far between. He has 6 games under a .912 SV% this year. The Rangers are 2-3-1 in those games. So even in a rare off night, they can still manage close to a 50-50 chance to win (granted it’s a small sample size).

 

Let’s start worrying about Igor not showing up on a regular basis and significantly hurting our chances if it actually starts to happen. Otherwise I am unconcerned because he’s just that good.

 

Oh, and here’s a hot take. Keep in mind I loved the shit out of Henrik like most everyone else. Pains me to my core he went out without a Cup. Igor has been better this year than any year I ever saw out of Henrik, and his track record says it isn’t a fluke. He’s dominated everywhere he’s gone. No exceptions.

Edited February 19, 2022 by rmc51

[Pete]

Yea like I said....average team with a super human goalie. 

 

Not sure why it upsets people. Especially because now the that talk track has shifted to it being okay that they can't score five on five and relying completely on goal tending to win, because their best player this year is a goaltender.

 

And then those people making the Hank comparisons will be reminded that Hank never won a cup... And then eventually those same people will be complaining that the team can't score and that's why they never advance in the playoffs and something needs to be done about it if they want to win a cup.

 

And then I'll still be correct in saying that ineffective teams at five on five who bleed shots and can only score on the PP are just average teams with elite tendys and the record is a product of said tendys and that point will still stand. 

 

And again I don't know why people get upset about an accurate assessment of the team that supported by statistics. The team literally ranks in the middle of the pack in quite a few statistical categories and near the bottom of the league in many defensive categories.

 

But hey, I keep throwing out many different statistical views that support my assessment, and all I ever get back is "The record!"

 

I'm just going to enjoy the ride and hope it doesn't end as quickly as I think it will. Once the playoffs start you go to war with the team you have and it's a race to 16 wins and it doesn't matter how you get them, but the regular season is a good indicator that this team will not fare well in seven game series against the better teams.

 

But then again there's always a chance management addresses the very obvious gaps that everybody who watches hockey can see, and which is why most talking heads lean towards saying the Rangers aren't for real or a paper tiger. Are those folks always right? No, but most of the time they're on the right track. Very few times will you see a team completely buck the numbers. 

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Pete

[Keirik]

4 hours ago, Pete said:

Yea like I said....average team with a super human goalie. 

 

Not sure why it upsets people. Especially because now the that talk track has shifted to it being okay that they can't score five on five and relying completely on goal tending to win, because their best player this year is a goaltender.

 

And then those people making the Hank comparisons will be reminded that Hank never won a cup... And then eventually those same people will be complaining that the team can't score and that's why they never advance in the playoffs and something needs to be done about it if they want to win a cup.

 

And then I'll still be correct in saying that ineffective teams at five on five who bleed shots and can only score on the PP are just average teams with elite tendys and the record is a product of said tendys and that point will still stand. 

 

And again I don't know why people get upset about an accurate assessment of the team that supported by statistics. The team literally ranks in the middle of the pack in quite a few statistical categories and near the bottom of the league in many defensive categories.

 

But hey, I keep throwing out many different statistical views that support my assessment, and all I ever get back is "The record!"

 

I'm just going to enjoy the ride and hope it doesn't end as quickly as I think it will. Once the playoffs start you go to war with the team you have and it's a race to 16 wins and it doesn't matter how you get them, but the regular season is a good indicator that this team will not fare well in seven game series against the better teams.

 

But then again there's always a chance management addresses the very obvious gaps that everybody who watches hockey can see, and which is why most talking heads lean towards saying the Rangers aren't for real or a paper tiger. Are those folks always right? No, but most of the time they're on the right track. Very few times will you see a team completely buck the numbers. 

 

Nope, that’s not what happens at all. You’re told the accurate statement that you can’t just discount the record just because you don’t like how the team achieves it. The record is what’s gets them in the playoffs. The record is what could get them home ice. The record is what could get them a favorable matchup in the first round.  You’re also showed statistics that show there still are powerplays in the playoffs. You’re also showed how it’s incorrect that a team can’t make a long playoff run if they depend on their goalie to be super human. You then try to change the goalposts to winning a cup when the conversation was in response to you saying quick exit. We literally have a game breaker on our team that plays goal. And guess what position is the most important one come playoff time in most cases? 
 

  Also, no one is upset. It’s a hockey message board. The point is to have conversations. Having a conversation doesn’t equate to being upset. Getting upset is over snarky needless remarks when we all have been here quite a long time and deserve a bit better.
 

The goal of this year was always to make the playoffs if for nothing else than to see what we have and what we need. We all want a cup. But reality is that we need to see who plays big in big games and who doesn’t. Our extra cap room will be nice to use this trade deadline but we can’t exactly blow up the future either so hopefully we get a guy or two that can lead by example. 
 

   I would never say a team can’t go far in the playoffs  with a game breaker in goal. There have been far too many examples of it throughout playoff history. 

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, Keirik said:

Getting upset is over snarky needless remarks when we all have been here quite a long time and deserve a bit better.

You can stop dying on this hill when you stop doing the same thing you're complaining about. I mean I realize I'm being snarky, I just don't care because it's a response to your posting style. So if you're gonna say you're not, then maybe you just don't realize...Or you just don't care. But weird that you keep bringing it up as if you're not just as guilty.

 

The above also applies to "we're just here to have a conversation"...Yea, sure, as long as no one disagrees with you. You want to dictate and interact peaceably with people who agree, but anyone who doesn't...

 

Come on bro. You can accuse all you want but at least I know what I'm doing. Acting like you're above the fray is getting  so tired.

[Keirik]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

You can stop dying on this hill when you stop doing the same thing you're complaining about. I mean I realize I'm being snarky, I just don't care because it's a response to your posting style. So if you're gonna say you're not, then maybe you just don't realize...Or you just don't care. But weird that you keep bringing it up as if you're not just as guilty.

 

The above also applies to "we're just here to have a conversation"...Yea, sure, as long as no one disagrees with you. You want to dictate and interact peaceably with people who agree, but anyone who doesn't...

 

Come on bro. You can accuse all you want but at least I know what I'm doing. Acting like you're above the fray is getting  so tired.

I have zero problem with your posts or anything you say until you post a one sentence reply “Long post that doesn't address anything I said.”

 

     That’s unnecessary. I enjoy having a back and forth with you. It’s the entire point of this board. I have plenty of disagreements with guys here in conversations. Guys think Im nuts for wanting Gourde. Never an issue with it. Hell, I’ve had easier conversations about ADA lol.  There isn’t another poster it goes this way with but whatever. It’s probably both of us. We just don’t mix sometimes but at least you’ve stopped telling me to pit you on ignore lol. We are making progress! 

   Getting back to the Rangers though. The point is, if we end up with a nearly .650%-.700%  still by the end of the year, there is no reason to think it can’t also propel us deeper into the playoffs. Not ideal but we do have Igor. He exists. He’s real. Would I want this style every year? No of course not. Doesn’t mean it can’t work this year though. There still are powerplays in the playoffs. The teams that go far usually always have a good playoff pp.  I’d like upgrades too but not at the expense of dumping the whole future just to use all 30m of cap space. All our trade proposals revolve around dumping Chytil and/or Lundkvist when in reality other GMs are going to be asking for Schneider, Miller, Othmann, et al. The only way I’m doing that is for a guy that has money retained and several more years under contract. 

 

[SaveByRichter35]

 @Pete @Keirik

[SaveByRichter35]

Anyways, to not be solely an instigator and actually bring some actual input the conversation, I hear both of your arguments and I agree with both of you on certain aspects.

 

Regarding @Pete's angle where we've been down this road before with the elite goalie.  Never fully came to fruition.  We always said how we wished we had someone on offense to be the second superstar on the team.  Lundqvist's duo, so to speak.

 

Regarding @Keirik's angle where if its working now there is no reason to think it won't keep working, well, now we have that offensive superstar to be Igor's "duo" in Panarin.  I mean, shit, we kinda have 3 now.  We had Kreider back then but we didn't have this Kreider.  Plus Zib, and can even add Fox to the mix too.  This team has a lot of firepower that Lundqvist never had in front of him.  

[Pete]

1 hour ago, SaveByRichter35 said:

Anyways, to not be solely an instigator and actually bring some actual input the conversation, I hear both of your arguments and I agree with both of you on certain aspects.

 

Regarding @Pete's angle where we've been down this road before with the elite goalie.  Never fully came to fruition.  We always said how we wished we had someone on offense to be the second superstar on the team.  Lundqvist's duo, so to speak.

 

Regarding @Keirik's angle where if its working now there is no reason to think it won't keep working, well, now we have that offensive superstar to be Igor's "duo" in Panarin.  I mean, shit, we kinda have 3 now.  We had Kreider back then but we didn't have this Kreider.  Plus Zib, and can even add Fox to the mix too.  This team has a lot of firepower that Lundqvist never had in front of him.  

They need Igor to be superhuman to beat a bad Boston team missing 2 star forwards on a Tuesday in February.

 

The intensity and quality of competition in the playoffs means they can't stay this bad at 5v5 and expect a good outcome. 

[SaveByRichter35]

23 minutes ago, Pete said:

They need Igor to be superhuman to beat a bad Boston team missing 2 star forwards on a Tuesday in February.

 

The intensity and quality of competition in the playoffs means they can't stay this bad at 5v5 and expect a good outcome. 

I mean I agree that game was fugly.  I didn't see the DET game so I can't comment on that one but I assume it wasn't any better being they lost.  I want to give them the benefit of the doubt after being off for about 2 weeks.  Let's hope they get their ass in gear moving forward.

[Drew a Penalty]

2 hours ago, SaveByRichter35 said:

This team has a lot of firepower that Lundqvist never had in front of him.  

 

While this is true, the Rangers don't have nearly as good role players as they did during the 2012-2015 run. Their third and fourth lines were among the best in the league. They lacked elite offensive weapons, but had really great secondary and tertiary scoring options. This team is completely without those. This team has nothing close to Pouliot-Brassard-Zuccarello. It has what's practically an AHL top line as the third line.

 

Boyle, Moore, Prust, Mitchell, Dorsett, Rupp, etc. all fed into the team's identity. They provided pressure and were often great defensively. The Rangers don't get through that series against Pittsburgh in 2014 without Dominic Moore's efforts against Crosby. Is there anyone who can do that on this team? I really like Kevin Rooney but I don't trust him to lock down Sebastian Aho or Brayden Point for a series.

 

Those players are easier to come by than elite offensive talent, but as we've seen in recent years, teams have to pay out the nose at the deadline to get the best role players when they lack them.

[SaveByRichter35]

6 minutes ago, Drew a Penalty said:

While this is true, the Rangers don't have nearly as good role players as they did during the 2012-2015 run. Their third and fourth lines were among the best in the league. They lacked elite offensive weapons, but had really great secondary and tertiary scoring options. This team is completely without those. This team has nothing close to Pouliot-Brassard-Zuccarello. It has what's practically an AHL top line as the third line.

 

Boyle, Moore, Prust, Mitchell, Dorsett, Rupp, etc. all fed into the team's identity. They provided pressure and were often great defensively. The Rangers don't get through that series against Pittsburgh in 2014 without Dominic Moore's efforts against Crosby. Is there anyone who can do that on this team? I really like Kevin Rooney but I don't trust him to lock down Sebastian Aho or Brayden Point for a series.

 

Those players are easier to come by than elite offensive talent, but as we've seen in recent years, teams have to pay out the nose at the deadline to get the best role players when they lack them.

Fair enough.  No arguments against that.  Thankfully this time around we have the top end offensive players and still have the elite goalie.  Hopefully management can get us that somewhat easier to get depth players.

[Drew a Penalty]

4 minutes ago, SaveByRichter35 said:

Fair enough.  No arguments against that.  Thankfully this time around we have the top end offensive players and still have the elite goalie.  Hopefully management can get us that somewhat easier to get depth players.

 

Kakko and Lafreniere playing to their potential would've made this much easier. Unfortunately, the Rangers have to divvy assets for both low-end and high-end talent. 

[Keirik]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

They need Igor to be superhuman to beat a bad Boston team missing 2 star forwards on a Tuesday in February.

 

The intensity and quality of competition in the playoffs means they can't stay this bad at 5v5 and expect a good outcome. 

And they beat the Stanley cup champions in back to back home and away games. 
One was 4-3 shootout win in Tampa with Igor at .893% 

the other was in MSG 4-0 shutout for Igor. 
 

and right before the break we beat Florida with our Norris winner missing. And we beat Boston earlier in the year with everyone in the lineup.  It’s hockey 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Keirik

[Keirik]

1 hour ago, Drew a Penalty said:

 

While this is true, the Rangers don't have nearly as good role players as they did during the 2012-2015 run. Their third and fourth lines were among the best in the league. They lacked elite offensive weapons, but had really great secondary and tertiary scoring options. This team is completely without those. This team has nothing close to Pouliot-Brassard-Zuccarello. It has what's practically an AHL top line as the third line.

 

Boyle, Moore, Prust, Mitchell, Dorsett, Rupp, etc. all fed into the team's identity. They provided pressure and were often great defensively. The Rangers don't get through that series against Pittsburgh in 2014 without Dominic Moore's efforts against Crosby. Is there anyone who can do that on this team? I really like Kevin Rooney but I don't trust him to lock down Sebastian Aho or Brayden Point for a series.

 

Those players are easier to come by than elite offensive talent, but as we've seen in recent years, teams have to pay out the nose at the deadline to get the best role players when they lack them.

It’s hard to tell if we have anyone that can yet. There are so many guys that need playoff experience on this roster before we can figure this stuff out.  I agree that a 28 year old ld Rooney with zero playoff games under his bel5 pales in comparison to a 33 or so season vet in Dominic Moore. There is only one way to tell though. Someone has to step up and you never know who’s it’s going to be come playoff time. Remember when Brian Boyle thought he was an elite power forward against Ottawa during the playoffs in like 2012 maybe? Remember when Nash forgot how to score in most postseasons? Lol. These are the kinds of things we need to find out. We can make some smart upgrades but I’m not selling all of our top talents and futures just to nab rentals that can never remain here. I’ll do it if it’s a guy that is going to be a piece for next year or more, but not to be held ransom just to get a player for 6 weeks or so. 
 

I want to win but I see this team as having a lot better pieces than we give credit for. The results are there but just not how we get to them. There are however, games that show me the capabilities are there. We didn’t crumble when we lost Fox for 5 or so games. We didn’t roll but we didn’t die on the vine either. We have some of those games where we beat good teams. We have games where we don’t of course, but the foundation is there in my mind. Plus with how heavy we are with 5 or 6 contracts that will all be here until 24/25 at the earliest, we are going to need cost effective production and experience through playing big games whether we like it or not. 

[Pete]

And the first game vs Tampa Elliot was .870 and next game Vassy was at .810. How many games you think you're seeing performances like that from their goalie?

 

Florida played Spencer Knight who gave an .882 performance. Igor .940.

 

How many times you think you're getting .882 from Bobrovsky? Who's a .920 goalie?

 

Like, we all realize other top teams are doing it with .920-.925 goalies and we need a .940 goalie....Right?

Edited February 20, 2022 by Pete