Kratzzzzoff

[Pete]

7 minutes ago, josh said:

Again, they don’t need the best RW right now. They need to work towards having good RWs, that produce, in May and June. 

This I agree with, they went through all of last year with a completely non-functional right side. 

 

I was hoping they'd upgrade that in an effort to improve 5 on 5 play. The reason their 5 on 5 players so bad it's because they're always playing 4 on 5 because the right wings are terrible. 

 

But it seems like everyone is just willing to put their eggs in the Igor basket and hope he's a .940 goalie forever. 

[Morphinity 2.0]

1 minute ago, rmc51 said:

Too late. They are going to do that with Vesey, Hunt, Gauthier, Kravtsov, etc. Even Goodrow is a trash top 6 player if they go there.

 

If it’s Vesey, by the way, I fully expect him to have 6 goals in the first 10 games or something, followed by 4 goals in 35. But he’ll stick because of the first 10.

Bottom-line is Kravtsov was meant to show more than this at this stage of his career. No doubt his development was fucked up, but this has nothing to do with lack of patience of developing talent in a rebuild when they're not rebuilding anymore and that talent has has ample time.

[Morphinity 2.0]

7 minutes ago, josh said:

Why not? We know they’re getting Kane and/or another RW at the deadline unless Kakko, Lafreniere and/or Kravtsov breakout as productive RWs.

 

 

Sure, but I don't want to just wave my hand over the rest of the regular season. Kane's not on the team until he's on the team.

[Ozzy]

11 minutes ago, Morphinity 2.0 said:

If he was playing here two years ago or even last year, I might buy this - the franchise was in a semi-rebuild, young players were starting their careers. But they're not rebuilding anymore. RW is a huge weakness for them and they can't waste a season, or a significant portion of a season, hoping this kid can find something and become the player he was purported to be when he was drafted - especially when we're sitting in his D+4 year. 

 

Morph is BACK!!!!!!

[Keirik]

11 hours ago, Phil said:

 

Well, yes, yes, and yes, but the second point is pretty dramatically overstating the ability he's shown at the NHL level thus far. He has a high level of skill in the KHL that we're hoping will translate to the NHL.

 

I'd also push back on him being a "pretty important guy" on the team. His contract value is important, kind of, but unless he can convert, that value is fleeting, and just adds to the wasteland at right-wing that's also not producing much value.

Well, I think that’s kind of nitpicking a bit of what I’m saying I’m saying he’s a talented player. Whether he can translate it over to the NHL game is still to be seen. The talent is there. He’s shown it elsewhere. Being successful in the NHL though isn’t just based on skill and talent. There’s a whole lot more to it.

 

  As for him being important to this team, I’d say he is.  Are you trying to say he isn’t partly because we went all last year without a high level RW and still succeeded? 

[Pete]

41 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

Wondering why people say Rangers fans could never support an actual rebuild? This thread. I’m not saying he’s guaranteed to be good, but imagine being this bent out of shape about him after a few preseason games. He might not even be in the opening lineup, so take some Valium and relax.

 

By the way, Kravtsov being in the lineup, even if he does wind up sucking, isn’t any different than trotting Hunt or Vesey out there in the top 6 - which looks likely to happen at some point again too, and maybe sooner rather than later. Some folks just haven’t moved on from Kravtsov’s bad choices last year and it’s polluting their ability to have any modicum of patience.

Step back and take a 10,000 ft view of the rebuild. They had two top 10 pics in Anderson and VK that are essentially wasted. Both of them turned out to be entitled pricks. 

 

It's kind of hard to talk about patience with a player who's four years past his draft and has yet to make a noticeable impact on North American ice. 

 

This kid is going to be 23 this year, peak output for forwards is usually years 24 through 28 before there's a decline.

 

How long are you willing to wait? To wind up with three or four years of peak production? 

 

There are plenty of players who are superstars in the KHL who couldn't sniff the third line of the NHL. He may be one of them. 

 

 

[BrooksBurner]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

This I agree with, they went through all of last year with a completely non-functional right side. 

 

I was hoping they'd upgrade that in an effort to improve 5 on 5 play. The reason their 5 on 5 players so bad it's because they're always playing 4 on 5 because the right wings are terrible. 

 

But it seems like everyone is just willing to put their eggs in the Igor basket and hope he's a .940 goalie forever. 

Every team has holes somewhere to start a season. The Rangers really just need to be good enough to remain in a decent playoff position (i.e., 2/3 in Metro) with the ability to strengthen for a playoff run. They don’t have the cap space like last year, but they do have the assets to address the holes with retention.

[Pete]

Just now, rmc51 said:

Every team has holes somewhere to start a season. The Rangers really just need to be good enough to remain in a decent playoff position (i.e., 2/3 in Metro) with the ability to strengthen for a playoff run. They don’t have the cap space like last year, but they do have the assets to address the holes with retention.

Yes, every team has holes... Their holes are usually a single player, not an entire position. 

 

Put it this way, even if they got Kane at the deadline... It's not like he pushes every other right wing down the chart to their rightful place. He would just be the only functional right wing. 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

Step back and take a 10,000 ft view of the rebuild. They had two top 10 pics in Anderson and VK that are essentially wasted. Both of them turned out to be entitled pricks. 

 

It's kind of hard to talk about patience with a player who's four years past his draft and has yet to make a noticeable impact on North American ice. 

 

This kid is going to be 23 this year, peak output for forwards is usually years 24 through 28 before there's a decline.

 

How long are you willing to wait? To wind up with three or four years of peak production? 

 

There are plenty of players who are superstars in the KHL who couldn't sniff the third line of the NHL. He may be one of them. 

 

 

I get all that. And he was supposed to be here last year, at least in Hartford. But we are talking 3 pre-season games. What I really think it is, other than holding a grudge about last year, is that patience in general is wearing thin from the stench of disappointment around Kakko, Chytil, and Lafreniere. Going into every year with expectations on these guys and being let down every time. It gets tough to take. There’s not a lot of patience left to give for Kravtsov who, even if he stayed over in the states last year, would have only had a year max under his belt anyway. I’m willing to wait at least 10-20 games.

[RJWantsTheCup]

Pretty sure Kravtsov has to clear waivers to be assigned to Hartford.  He would get claimed by someone more than likely so they might as well play him somewhere and see what happens.  Not sure if the 2nd line is the answer but neither is the 4th line.  3rd line might be the best option but that leaves Vesey or Blais playing in the top 6.  

[BrooksBurner]

41 minutes ago, Pete said:

Yes, every team has holes... Their holes are usually a single player, not an entire position. 

 

Put it this way, even if they got Kane at the deadline... It's not like he pushes every other right wing down the chart to their rightful place. He would just be the only functional right wing. 

There’s a chance they need more bodies than just Kane, but let’s not forget they scooped Vatrano for a 4th. The Avs got Lehkonen for only a 2nd and a mid-range prospect. The Rangers should be able to find decent rentals for reasonable cost to fill the depth down the wing behind Kane if required.

[Cash or Czech]

 

I guess this is a tweet about a future tweet, but more to come on how Kravtsov's attitude actually is instead of all the inferring going on here.

[Albatrosss]

We need VK to succeed. We have no one on RW.  And even if we get Kane at the deadline, it still leaves another top 6 RW position empty. If he doesnt, that'll mean the offseason was a waste and the team did not improve in that position.  We have to root for this kid. No other choice really. 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, rmc51 said:

I get all that. And he was supposed to be here last year, at least in Hartford. But we are talking 3 pre-season games. What I really think it is, other than holding a grudge about last year, is that patience in general is wearing thin from the stench of disappointment around Kakko, Chytil, and Lafreniere. Going into every year with expectations on these guys and being let down every time. It gets tough to take. There’s not a lot of patience left to give for Kravtsov who, even if he stayed over in the states last year, would have only had a year max under his belt anyway. I’m willing to wait at least 10-20 games.

I hear you on this. Agree with most of it.

 

I was mostly responding to the "this is why you can't rebuild in NY" stuff. There's an expectation around a rebuild that flew out the window when they got to the ECF, so waiting on a 23 year old Kravtsov, with his history, doesn't really fit into the criteria of the comment.

[Phil]

2 hours ago, rmc51 said:

Wasn’t calling you specifically out at all. But I’ll tag who it was mostly directed at @LeetchHOF, who created the account yesterday for seemingly the main purpose of needing to have a meltdown thread about Kravtsov lmao

 

I said polluting patience. Not polluting evaluation of play. Big difference. The choices he made last year don’t go away. It does impact how long he has to prove something, but if a few preseason games is the window…well, polluted patience.

 

Re: Lafreniere. It seems pretty clear they don’t intend to switch him, but that’s a discussion for another thread.

 

Re: patience/evaluation, fair enough. I can only speak to myself here, anyway, but color me completely unimpressed with Kravtsov. This year, thus far, and every year before, too. Remember, we're now four years removed from his draft. He's done nothing to move the needle at all in that time. If anything, it's gone backwards (due to his behavioral issues). I'm hoping for the best, but there's scant evidence to have much faith in so far.

 

Re: Lafreniere at RW, I think it's hyper relevant to this conversation, even though we could probably have a deeper one separately. I'm also not entirely sure how to read that situation. Do they intend to switch him? Probably not, but they've tried it repeatedly, which suggests they're not exactly closed off to the idea. But from my thousand foot view, he's a better, more promising solution to the team's RW woes than Kravtsov has been to date.

[Pete]

48 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

There’s a chance they need more bodies than just Kane, but let’s not forget they scooped Vatrano for a 4th. The Avs got Lehkonen for only a 2nd and a mid-range prospect. The Rangers should be able to find decent rentals for reasonable cost to fill the depth down the wing behind Kane if required.

Agreed. My issue is that it's the same holes they had last year...And not one of the players who came to camp with a chance to play RW, esp in the top 6, has done a damn thing to say "That job is mine". Hence, frustration.

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Yes, every team has holes... Their holes are usually a single player, not an entire position. 

 

Put it this way, even if they got Kane at the deadline... It's not like he pushes every other right wing down the chart to their rightful place. He would just be the only functional right wing. 

 

Nitpicking, but I'd replace functional with productive here. Kakko is functional. He's just not productive. Everyone else is definitely some degree of nonfunctional.

[Phil]

50 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

There’s a chance they need more bodies than just Kane, but let’s not forget they scooped Vatrano for a 4th. The Avs got Lehkonen for only a 2nd and a mid-range prospect. The Rangers should be able to find decent rentals for reasonable cost to fill the depth down the wing behind Kane if required.

 

Not to hijack your conversation with Pete, but while I agree with this, it also illustrates how dire their big picture at RW is. You're not talking about the idea of trading for "depth," you're talking about the idea of trading for competence. That's supposed to come through the draft and it just hasn't, and the results are brutal. In effect, you're advocating for the team spending multiple picks to add players they should have been able to do by just drafting well in the first place.

 

Let's say they get a Lehkonen this year for the same or similar price that the Avs did last year. That players is arguably going to be in the role that Kravtsov or Kakko should be, but instead of costing the Rangers a first to simply draft that player, it's now cost them a first, second, and change to make up for the fact that the first attempt was an abject failure.

[Albatrosss]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

Agreed. My issue is that it's the same holes they had last year...And not one of the players who came to camp with a chance to play RW, esp in the top 6, has done a damn thing to say "That job is mine". Hence, frustration.

we're up against the cap, so there wasnt much choice other than hoping Krav will fit in.  I'm also wondering who are they going to trade to make cap room for Kane? Chicago wont be taking our garbage in Vesey, Hunt, and Goat, so i'm thinking Krav as one of the pieces. 

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Keirik said:

Well, I think that’s kind of nitpicking a bit of what I’m saying I’m saying he’s a talented player. Whether he can translate it over to the NHL game is still to be seen. The talent is there. He’s shown it elsewhere. Being successful in the NHL though isn’t just based on skill and talent. There’s a whole lot more to it.

 

As for him being important to this team, I’d say he is.  Are you trying to say he isn’t partly because we went all last year without a high level RW and still succeeded? 

 

Yes, talented in the KHL. TBD in the NHL. That's not nitpicking, to me. It's critical context to understanding what the player actually is here (so far).

 

Re: importance to team, I'm not trying to say he isn't, I'm saying he isn't important, because he isn't. Not unless/until he produces. Right now, he's a relatively cheap warm body who doesn't appear to hurt them, but doesn't help them, either. He's going to be 23, it's been four years since his draft, he now requires waivers for reassignment, and he's going to be eligible for arbitration soon. Sorry, but where's the value here, exactly?

[Phil]

2 minutes ago, CCCP said:

we're up against the cap, so there wasnt much choice other than hoping Krav will fit in.  I'm also wondering who are they going to trade to make cap room for Kane? Chicago wont be taking our garbage in Vesey, Hunt, and Goat, so i'm thinking Krav as one of the pieces. 

 

We have a thread for this already, but if they move Kakko in the deal and bank the approximately $4.5 million they're projected to have by the deadline, with 50% retention, you can make it work. They'll need to move a body out in the deal regardless in order to not end up offsetting a player like Kakko or Kravtsov to the fourth line.

We can discuss this more in detail here, though:
 

 

[Pete]

8 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Nitpicking, but I'd replace functional with productive here. Kakko is functional. He's just not productive. Everyone else is definitely some degree of nonfunctional.

Yea, you have too much time on your hands.

[Albatrosss]

7 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Yes, talented in the KHL. TBD in the NHL. That's not nitpicking, to me. It's critical context to understanding what the player actually is here (so far).

 

Re: importance to team, I'm not trying to say he isn't, I'm saying he isn't important, because he isn't. Not unless/until he produces. Right now, he's a relatively cheap warm body who doesn't appear to hurt them, but doesn't help them, either. He's going to be 23, it's been four years since his draft, he now requires waivers for reassignment, and he's going to be eligible for arbitration soon. Sorry, but where's the value here, exactly?

you could say this about anyone in the NHL or any other sport 

[josh]

2 hours ago, Morphinity 2.0 said:

Sure, but I don't want to just wave my hand over the rest of the regular season. Kane's not on the team until he's on the team.

 

You really think playing Kravtsov over Jimmy Vesey in the top 9 for a few games is what is going to keep the Rangers out of the playoff spot?

[josh]

47 minutes ago, Cash or Czech said:

 

I guess this is a tweet about a future tweet, but more to come on how Kravtsov's attitude actually is instead of all the inferring going on here.

 

 from a few days ago