Kratzzzzoff

[Albatrosss]

Enough with essays, bro. Goat sucks. Get over it. 

[The Dude]

2 minutes ago, CCCP said:

Enough with essays, bro. Goat sucks. Get over it. 

Read. It has very little to do with Gauthier.

Edited October 8, 2022 by The Dude

[Albatrosss]

1 minute ago, The Dude said:

Read. It has very little to do with Gauthier.

Everything you post has to do with Gauthier 

[The Dude]

1 minute ago, CCCP said:

Everything you post has to do with Gauthier 

[Albatrosss]

[Sod16]

44 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Point? Play the prospects with good players. Don't play Jimmy Vesey. 

 

Hunt, Blais, Goodrow, Vesey etc.   None will ever be a long term, or probably even short term, answer on the top 6.  So why bother?  Best to go with prospects who might possibly fit the role than players who you already know will not.

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

8 hours ago, Pete said:

Ummm, maybe play a player who's thoroughly outplayed him, in Vesey? Yea, it almost sounds like playing the players who are playing the best hockey gives you the best chance to win. Cray, I know.

 

Didn't really answer my question. MAYBE Vesey gives the team a slightly better chance to win game #1-10, but if we get Kravtsov going we have a player that can contribute for many years. Having Vesey in our top 6 is bad both short term and long term, even if it maybe is the better alternative for the first 10 games because Krav hasn't gotten warm yet.

[Pete]

7 hours ago, The Dude said:

But he has. He's played very well. I believe 2 goals called back that shouldn't have been. He was better than Blais, Goodrow, Hunt, Carpenter and Kravtsov.  

 

You unintentionally helped me make my point. Vesey sucks. You know  it. We all do. So THAT is why some of us think picking the somewhat unknown/untested in Kravtsov is the way to go right now. 

 

You said it. "Vesey sucks". So who cares how good he is in preseason? Who cares how many he scores in preseason? We know what he is. Just like we (well not all of us) know what Gauthier is.  It's a waste to invest time in Vesey. It's not a waste to invest time in Kravstov. We know what Vesey is. We have yet to see a large enough sample size of Kravstov to say anything. 

 

Is it bullshit that he got his way and walked his way into the top 6? Sure. I guess I can agree with you on that.

 

Then again, I prefer it when a prospect gets put into a role that suites his supposed skill set, instead of working their way up from a checking role. Look what that did to Kakko. Look how it's stalled Lafreniere. Chytil has been playing with the crap that has been the bottom 6 for 4 years now.  Look at their development. It shouldn't even be a question as to what these guys are at this point, but there's legit reason as to why it's like that.

 

They haven't been put in a situation to succeed or to gain confidence while riding coattails of the teams top players. That chance was given to shit players like Blackwell, Hunt, DiGuseppe, Fast and now you are OK with going with Vesey?

 

Be happy.  Atleast one of the kids is getting the proper opportunity.  

The last time that happened the Rangers discovered they had a PPG player on their hands. Then traded him, because....... Well he was always going to be traded because he took so long to develop and the team had waaayyy better players coming up through the system (who haven't played as well as Buchnevich did, even in his down, unacceptable production years)   

 

Point? Play the prospects with good players. Don't play Jimmy Vesey. 

You realize Buch played his way up from the 4th line, right?

 

Tyler Seguin was a 2 overall who started as a third liner on a deep Bruins team and worked his way up. This shit isn't uncommon. 

 

You're clinging to this narrative that the Rangers turned Kakko into a checking forward. Not what happened at all. He's always been that. He just hasn't been able to score at this level for many reasons. You'd think the Rangers fans whining about Kravtsov getting sent down would have learned from Kakko and Lafreniere cautionary tale... Rather than let a player who isn't ready drown at the NHL level, if you want to see them develop, send them to the developmental league called the AHL.

 

Gallant's job is to win and that means playing the players who are playing the best hockey when camp breaks. If it's Vesey and not VK, or Gauthier, so be it. 

 

I'd rather they roster versatile players who can slot up like Vesey and Blais than another soft perimeter player who can't get to the middle. 

 

And yes, we know what Gauthier is. A guy who can't score. 

[Pete]

3 hours ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Didn't really answer my question. MAYBE Vesey gives the team a slightly better chance to win game #1-10, but if we get Kravtsov going we have a player that can contribute for many years. Having Vesey in our top 6 is bad both short term and long term, even if it maybe is the better alternative for the first 10 games because Krav hasn't gotten warm yet.

So then Kravtsov might get Vesey's spot in game 10. Or 15. Or 25.

 

The coach can change the lineup any time he chooses. 

 

If Vesey is playing good hockey, why not play him? Why are you guys so adverse to having players' performance earn them ice time? 

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

5 minutes ago, Pete said:

So then Kravtsov might get Vesey's spot in game 10. Or 15. Or 25.

 

The coach can change the lineup any time he chooses. 

 

If Vesey is playing good hockey, why not play him? Why are you guys so adverse to having players' performance earn them ice time? 

Because he's not playing "good hockey" and we all know what Vesey is. He can overperform in a small sample size, but he is what he is, and he's not a top 6 winger for a team that's thinking about contending.

 

Vesey has earned a roster spot, as a 4th liner or 13th forward, not as a top 6 forward.

 

You don't want Kravtsov to play, I get that, but you have to come up with a better (realistic) alternative than Jimmy Vesey. And there are none, that's why the obvious best play is to give Kravtsov a chance and hope it works out.

[Pete]

6 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

You don't want Kravtsov to play, I get that,

If that's what you think, you don't get anything. I want him to play... Play well and earn the spot. 

 

Quote

but you have to come up with a better (realistic) alternative than Jimmy Vesey.

No I don't. There's a list of players in camp and the best 13 players in their roles will make it. VK isn't one of them, today. He's top 6 or bust and Vesey gives you more options. 

 

Quote

And there are none, that's why the obvious best play is to give Kravtsov a chance and hope it works out.

Or, hidden option 3... Kravtsov can use his talent and earn the spot. 

 

And you still didn't answer the question... Why are you so against that? 

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

5 minutes ago, Pete said:

If that's what you think, you don't get anything. I want him to play... Play well and earn the spot. 

It doesn't sound like it. You're not even gonna let him play ONE meaningful (see: not pre season) game before you want him out of the team. So you clearly don't want him to play and earn a spot.

 

6 minutes ago, Pete said:

No I don't. There's a list of players in camp and the best 13 players in their roles will make it. VK isn't one of them, today. He's top 6 or bust and Vesey gives you more options. 

If you base it on 3 pre season games, than maybe he's not (neither would Panarin be if pre season is the only thing taken into consideration). If you include the rest of their careers, talent-level etc. he's ahead of Hunt, Gauthier and Vesey.

 

7 minutes ago, Pete said:

And you still didn't answer the question... Why are you so against that? 

Is the question "Why are you guys so adverse to having players' performance earn them ice time?"? If so, the answer is very simple. I'm not against that at all. But I don't think it's smart or rational to not give a talent like Kravtsov more than 3 pre season games to "prove himself". Give him 10-15 games, if he's still as bad as in pre season I have no problem taking him out of the lineup, but atleast give him a real chance. Throwing him out for 3 pre season games with 3 different lines is not that.

 

Now can you answer my question. Why are you so against giving Kravtsov a few (10-15) games? Do you really think he's that much worse than Vesey that it would actually ruin our season? Do you think Vesey has a greater ceiling?

[Pete]

21 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

It doesn't sound like it. You're not even gonna let him play ONE meaningful (see: not pre season) game before you want him out of the team. So you clearly don't want him to play and earn a spot.

Show me where I said "I want him off the team". Please go find the post. I'll wait.

 

Actually let me save you the time...It's a strawman argument, because I never said that. I've said players need to earn their spots and right now Vesey has and VK hasn't. But camp doesn't break today.

 

Quote

If you base it on 3 pre season games, than maybe he's not (neither would Panarin be if pre season is the only thing taken into consideration). If you include the rest of their careers, talent-level etc. he's ahead of Hunt, Gauthier and Vesey.

What a ridiculous comment. And no, VK is not ahead of Vesey. Another comical comment. Kravtsov's North American body of work is comprised of a couple of points at the end of one season and some shitty Hartford performances and marginal training camps. Let's be serious here.

 

Quote

Is the question "Why are you guys so adverse to having players' performance earn them ice time?"? If so, the answer is very simple. I'm not against that at all. But I don't think it's smart or rational to not give a talent like Kravtsov more than 3 pre season games to "prove himself". Give him 10-15 games, if he's still as bad as in pre season I have no problem taking him out of the lineup, but atleast give him a real chance. Throwing him out for 3 pre season games with 3 different lines is not that.

So what you're saying is, you don't think he needs to earn it. Because all I've read is the word "given". And yet Vesey has played 3 games on different lines and has been much better.

 

The funny thing is, both Vesey and VK showed up at camp with this being very close to their last chances in the NHL, and one player has shown he's playing for his NHL career and the other is Kravtsov.

 

Quote

 

Now can you answer my question. Why are you so against giving Kravtsov a few (10-15) games? Do you really think he's that much worse than Vesey that it would actually ruin our season? Do you think Vesey has a greater ceiling?

I'm not against anyone. I'm FOR icing the most competitive team possible. If that includes VK, great, if it doesn't...Also great.

 

That said, I don't think he's earned it. I'm interested in the team winning, not some personal crusade to get my pet prospect more playing time.

 

It has nothing to do with ceiling. The Rangers have no cap space and if it comes down to VK or Vesey as the 13th forward then the answer is easily Vesey. Vesey plays both sides, can slot up or down and not hurt you, and can PK.

 

I would also love for Krav to come out and score 6 goals and leave no doubt he's a top 6 player, and ending this debate. 

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

38 minutes ago, Pete said:

Show me where I said "I want him off the team". Please go find the post. I'll wait.

 

Actually let me save you the time...It's a strawman argument, because I never said that. I've said players need to earn their spots and right now Vesey has and VK hasn't. But camp doesn't break today.

What? You've said numerous times you don't want him to play on opening night. "Out of the team" = Not playing.

 

40 minutes ago, Pete said:

And no, VK is not ahead of Vesey. Another comical comment. Kravtsov's North American body of work is comprised of a couple of points at the end of one season and some shitty Hartford performances and marginal training camps. Let's be serious here.

Kravtsov's (only) 20 games: 2 goals, 4 points. 0.2 points pr game

Vesey's last 86 games (last season + 20 games with Nucks): 8 goals, 18 points. 0.2 points pr game

 

So actually Kravtsov's NHL numbers from two years ago when he played bottom 6 minutes is actually on the same pace as Vesey most recent season.

 

43 minutes ago, Pete said:

So what you're saying is, you don't think he needs to earn it. Because all I've read is the word "given". And yet Vesey has played 3 games on different lines and has been much better.

Can you tell me how you can earn something if you're not given the chance to earn it? You think 3-4 pre season is enough to evaluate a player, I think we should give the player atleast 10 meaningful games before we can say that he's not good enough. I don't see how that's so hard to understand. You have to give a little to get a lot.

 

47 minutes ago, Pete said:

not some personal crusade to get my pet prospect more playing time.

[LeetchHOF]

23 hours ago, rmc51 said:

Wondering why people say Rangers fans could never support an actual rebuild? This thread. I’m not saying he’s guaranteed to be good, but imagine being this bent out of shape about him after a few preseason games. He might not even be in the opening lineup, so take some Valium and relax.

 

By the way, Kravtsov being in the lineup, even if he does wind up sucking, isn’t any different than trotting Hunt or Vesey out there in the top 6 - which looks likely to happen at some point again too, and maybe sooner rather than later. Some folks just haven’t moved on from Kravtsov’s bad choices last year and it’s polluting their ability to have any modicum of patience.

 

22 hours ago, rmc51 said:

Wasn’t calling you specifically out at all. But I’ll tag who it was mostly directed at @LeetchHOF, who created the account yesterday for seemingly the main purpose of needing to have a meltdown thread about Kravtsov lmao

 

I said polluting patience. Not polluting evaluation of play. Big difference. The choices he made last year don’t go away. It does impact how long he has to prove something, but if a few preseason games is the window…well, polluted patience.

 

Re: Lafreniere. It seems pretty clear they don’t intend to switch him, but that’s a discussion for another thread.

Sorry u got ur panties all in a bunch.  I’ll stand by my original post. And yes, I’d much rather see Hunt, Blais, or Vesey out there than Soft as Charmin 74. 

[Cash or Czech]

40 minutes ago, LeetchHOF said:

 

Sorry u got ur panties all in a bunch.  I’ll stand by my original post. And yes, I’d much rather see Hunt, Blais, or Vesey out there than Soft as Charmin 74. 

 

Something tells me this guy misses the good ol' days of the stopped puck era and that we should re-sign Colton Orr, Ryan Hollweg, and the rest of the gritty gang.

[BrooksBurner]

27 minutes ago, LeetchHOF said:

 

Sorry u got ur panties all in a bunch.  I’ll stand by my original post. And yes, I’d much rather see Hunt, Blais, or Vesey out there than Soft as Charmin 74. 

If you think that’s me with my panties in a bunch, then you clearly haven’t seen me in peak Chytil defense formation around here. But if you send me your address and $50, I’ll mail them to you as a souvenir to stuff in your mouth after I get a real deep wedgie going.

[RJWantsTheCup]

It's hard to imagine that in 3 pre-season games Kravtsov hasn't shown a good effort, a nice pass, a good shot, a nice move, good stick handling, a nice defensive play, a good back check or anything.    No matter who your linemates are you would think something good would shine through at some point.

[The Dude]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

You realize Buch played his way up from the 4th line, right?

 

Tyler Seguin was a 2 overall who started as a third liner on a deep Bruins team and worked his way up. This shit isn't uncommon. 

 

You're clinging to this narrative that the Rangers turned Kakko into a checking forward. Not what happened at all. He's always been that. He just hasn't been able to score at this level for many reasons. You'd think the Rangers fans whining about Kravtsov getting sent down would have learned from Kakko and Lafreniere cautionary tale... Rather than let a player who isn't ready drown at the NHL level, if you want to see them develop, send them to the developmental league called the AHL.

 

Gallant's job is to win and that means playing the players who are playing the best hockey when camp breaks. If it's Vesey and not VK, or Gauthier, so be it. 

 

I'd rather they roster versatile players who can slot up like Vesey and Blais than another soft perimeter player who can't get to the middle. 

 

And yes, we know what Gauthier is. A guy who can't score. 

You missed my point entirely about Buch. He was deemed not very good his first couple years because he wasn't developing fast enough.

 

He wasn't developing fast enough,  because he was toiling on the lower lines. Then all of a sudden,  when their back was against the wall and they were "rebuilding ", they plug him into the top 6 and he's a PPG player. By that time, everyone was saying the Rangers wouldn't need him. "He was always going to be traded" was a phrase thrown around here, because he just wasn't as tantalizing as the next group of prospects whom would get fucked just like Buch did here. 

 

We can't cry about the lack of growth from prospects, when they don't get put in position TO produce. They keep doing this. Why does every top forward prospect (here) take 3-4 years to get that chance? These kids are teetering along that same Buchnevich curve, where the team isn't sure exactly what they have and how to approach their next contracts. Yet none have been a fixture in the top 6 and get zero PP time.  

 

Kakko was drafted as an elite scorer who would carry the puck to all areas of the ice. He is now a defensive minded forward who is strong along the boards and doesn't shoot the puck. They turned him into this. 

 

Again with your take on best players in camp winning jobs over others.  Why is this only pertaining to Vesey and Kravtsov?

 

Other players played better than Goodrow,  Reaves, Carpenter, Hunt, Trouba, Trocheck and so on. Having a good camp or a bad camp is not always a serious gauge of how the team should pick its roster. Are they cutting Trouba because he was brutal in camp? Is Jones taking his place? He had the better camp. By your formula, that how it works..... for Vesey... 

 

We both know it's not worth playing Vesey over Kravtsov. Ever.

 

We both know that playing a player off a PTO, in the top 6 over recent 1, 2 and 9th overall picks is NOT what successful teams would do. 

 

Good camp from PTO who has a history of sucking doesn't top, top forward prospect. He tops Gauthier and Hunt. Lower line player that can slot up if all else fails. All else being Kravtsov, Kakko, Lafreniere and maybe an AHL call up. You don't slot him up out of camp. He's a last resort. Depth. 

 

We also know that Gauthier was the first player signed this offseason by the Rangers.  Vesey is here on a PTO... A PTO!!! One of these guys has a contract. The other has had to go for a PTO how many years in a row? We both like pretty bad players.  I'll never suggest my shitty player should play over Kravtsov. 

 

 

[The Dude]

24 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

It's hard to imagine that in 3 pre-season games Kravtsov hasn't shown a good effort, a nice pass, a good shot, a nice move, good stick handling, a nice defensive play, a good back check or anything.    No matter who your linemates are you would think something good would shine through at some point.

It's weird that Gallant has praised him for doing everything they ask from him. 

 

Just want to remind some. Kravtsov looked like he had a decent 2 way game last camp and in his short look with the club the year prior. 

 

This thought,  that he's a weak, one dimensional player is just a tiny bit off. 

 

Look, I was against the pick when they made it, and I'm seriously not his biggest fan. I just find it odd how much people dump on this kid. We don't know the circumstances around what happened last year. He came to the media at the start of camp, to say a lot of what was being said about the situation was false.

 

Time for Uncle Larry or someone in the media to maybe clear the air for the kid. I'd like to hear what he says happened. It could possibly turn many people's opinion about what kind of person he is. Maybe not. 

[Pete]

2 hours ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

What? You've said numerous times you don't want him to play on opening night. "Out of the team" = Not playing.

 

Kravtsov's (only) 20 games: 2 goals, 4 points. 0.2 points pr game

Vesey's last 86 games (last season + 20 games with Nucks): 8 goals, 18 points. 0.2 points pr game

 

So actually Kravtsov's NHL numbers from two years ago when he played bottom 6 minutes is actually on the same pace as Vesey most recent season.

 

Can you tell me how you can earn something if you're not given the chance to earn it? You think 3-4 pre season is enough to evaluate a player, I think we should give the player atleast 10 meaningful games before we can say that he's not good enough. I don't see how that's so hard to understand. You have to give a little to get a lot.

 

Bro, go back to the beginning of the debate. People were crying about Vesey getting a game on the first line at the expense of Krav. All I said is he's earned that shot more than Krav has. Not once did I say that I don't want him on the team. I said repeatedly that the players playing the best hockey should make the team.

 

Kravtsov is making the team, likely at the expense of another craptastic player like Hunt or Gauthier. And rightfully so. They have been crap, too, so yes you take the player with the higher ceiling when all three players are garbage.

 

But you don't simply gift him a spot over a player who's playing much better hockey than he is right now. 

[Sod16]

I think VK has a confidence problem right now given the spotlight that's been put on him.  A couple of goals set up by Bread could change that.  A couple of weak showings could send him down further in the other direction as well.  We'll see.  I'm not positive he's going to start the season here, being that he's skated with the 5th line in practice the past few days.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

It's hard to imagine that in 3 pre-season games Kravtsov hasn't shown a good effort, a nice pass, a good shot, a nice move, good stick handling, a nice defensive play, a good back check or anything.    No matter who your linemates are you would think something good would shine through at some point.

Exactly, this is the same POV I had with Lafreniere in his first two seasons. Show me at least a glimmer or a spark of capability. Even Chytil does that, quite often. His issue is consistency. 

[Pete]

50 minutes ago, The Dude said:

You missed my point entirely about Buch. He was deemed not very good his first couple years because he wasn't developing fast enough.

 

He wasn't developing fast enough,  because he was toiling on the lower lines. Then all of a sudden,  when their back was against the wall and they were "rebuilding ", they plug him into the top 6 and he's a PPG player. By that time, everyone was saying the Rangers wouldn't need him. "He was always going to be traded" was a phrase thrown around here, because he just wasn't as tantalizing as the next group of prospects whom would get fucked just like Buch did here. 

 

We can't cry about the lack of growth from prospects, when they don't get put in position TO produce. They keep doing this. Why does every top forward prospect (here) take 3-4 years to get that chance? These kids are teetering along that same Buchnevich curve, where the team isn't sure exactly what they have and how to approach their next contracts. Yet none have been a fixture in the top 6 and get zero PP time.  

 

Kakko was drafted as an elite scorer who would carry the puck to all areas of the ice. He is now a defensive minded forward who is strong along the boards and doesn't shoot the puck. They turned him into this. 

 

Again with your take on best players in camp winning jobs over others.  Why is this only pertaining to Vesey and Kravtsov?

 

Other players played better than Goodrow,  Reaves, Carpenter, Hunt, Trouba, Trocheck and so on. Having a good camp or a bad camp is not always a serious gauge of how the team should pick its roster. Are they cutting Trouba because he was brutal in camp? Is Jones taking his place? He had the better camp. By your formula, that how it works..... for Vesey... 

 

We both know it's not worth playing Vesey over Kravtsov. Ever.

 

We both know that playing a player off a PTO, in the top 6 over recent 1, 2 and 9th overall picks is NOT what successful teams would do. 

 

Good camp from PTO who has a history of sucking doesn't top, top forward prospect. He tops Gauthier and Hunt. Lower line player that can slot up if all else fails. All else being Kravtsov, Kakko, Lafreniere and maybe an AHL call up. You don't slot him up out of camp. He's a last resort. Depth. 

 

We also know that Gauthier was the first player signed this offseason by the Rangers.  Vesey is here on a PTO... A PTO!!! One of these guys has a contract. The other has had to go for a PTO how many years in a row? We both like pretty bad players.  I'll never suggest my shitty player should play over Kravtsov. 

 

 

There's a lot of revisionist history and overall misinformation here.

 

There are two forward spots up for grabs, and one spot on defense. You're suggesting established players need to compete for their spot just to prove a point makes it hard to take you seriously. 

 

We can just agree to disagree. 

[Mdk154]

5 hours ago, Sod16 said:

I think VK has a confidence problem right now given the spotlight that's been put on him.  A couple of goals set up by Bread could change that.  A couple of weak showings could send him down further in the other direction as well.  We'll see.  I'm not positive he's going to start the season here, being that he's skated with the 5th line in practice the past few days.

Nailed it.

If anyone here played any sports of higher level you would know how much of a mental component everything is. The kid knows he is under the microscope, he is still young in a new country, trying to figure it all out. The kid just needs a few things to go his way and things can flip quickly with his talent.

Amazing how people seriously want to judge based on a handful of pre season games. He needs to be around the club for a few months,  get in some games where he isnt talked about, and let him figure it out.