It's Time to Have the Lafrenière Conversation

[Pete]

Why is everyone just ignoring the fact that it doesn't matter what would have happened to Lafreniere if he was drafted 3 years ago by a really bad team.

 

He wasn't, he was drafted to a really competitive team. Maybe that hurt his development but it is what it is. You can't put that toothpaste back in the tube and nor does it matter to the team moving forward. He has no role here.

 

But that's just point number one.

 

Point number two that nobody really ever wants to address or answer is that he has shown no glimpses of anything at all (aside from the one deke he pulled off twice) that would make you think he had the requisite skill set to be a top line player in the NHL.

 

Let's go through it again, he's not fast enough, he's not strong enough, he doesn't have enough hockey sense, he doesn't have enough creativity, he doesn't have a good enough shot, to be a top line player.

 

What has anyone seen in his game to make them think he should be given more responsibility?

 

The people who watch this team closely and have spent years following this sport and reporting on it are saying he doesn't have what it takes. 

 

The same people who are saying we're wasting the competitive window are the ones saying let's just see what we have in him! Meanwhile this guy has done nothing to force a coach to keep him in the lineup. There are players who every time they are out on the ice are creating something, and it has nothing to do with being on the power play. They're doing the little things and those little things are being built on to create big opportunities. Lafreniere doesn't do that nearly enough.

 

It's really just time to move on, if he flourishes somewhere else that's great, but much like ADA it was never going to happen here. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Pete

[jsm7302]

35 minutes ago, Pete said:

Why is everyone just ignoring the fact that it doesn't matter what would have happened to Lafreniere if he was drafted 3 years ago by a really bad team.

 

He wasn't, he was drafted to a really competitive team. Maybe that hurt his development but it is what it is. You can't put that toothpaste back in the tube and nor does it matter to the team moving forward. He has no role here.

 

But that's just point number one.

 

Point number two that nobody really ever wants to address or answer is that he has shown no glimpses of anything at all (aside from the one deke he pulled off twice) that would make you think he had the requisite skill set to be a top line player in the NHL.

 

Let's go through it again, he's not fast enough, he's not strong enough, he doesn't have enough hockey sense, he doesn't have enough creativity, he doesn't have a good enough shot, to be a top line player.

 

What has anyone seen in his game to make them think he should be given more responsibility?

 

The people who watch this team closely and have spent years following this sport and reporting on it are saying he doesn't have what it takes. 

 

The same people who are saying we're wasting the competitive window are the ones saying let's just see what we have in him! Meanwhile this guy has done nothing to force a coach to keep him in the lineup. There are players who every time they are out on the ice are creating something, and it has nothing to do with being on the power play. They're doing the little things and those little things are being built on to create big opportunities. Lafreniere doesn't do that nearly enough.

 

It's really just time to move on, if he flourishes somewhere else that's great, but much like ADA it was never going to happen here. 

That's a solid take. I've said it a bunch of times before....drafting BPA is a mistake with no short term plan for integration into the lineup. This team just went LW happy with signings and drafting. Now we have Othmann awaiting an opprtunity but this sweater filler is still in his role as an ineffective 3rd liner.

 

Moving Laf for a RW is important for the future of this squad. Let him flourish elsewhere. This team has worked around making this the window, we expected more and he didn't deliver.

 

Another vote for time to move on. 

[Gravesy]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Why is everyone just ignoring the fact that it doesn't matter what would have happened to Lafreniere if he was drafted 3 years ago by a really bad team.

 

He wasn't, he was drafted to a really competitive team. Maybe that hurt his development but it is what it is. You can't put that toothpaste back in the tube and nor does it matter to the team moving forward. He has no role here.

 

But that's just point number one.

 

Point number two that nobody really ever wants to address or answer is that he has shown no glimpses of anything at all (aside from the one deke he pulled off twice) that would make you think he had the requisite skill set to be a top line player in the NHL.

 

Let's go through it again, he's not fast enough, he's not strong enough, he doesn't have enough hockey sense, he doesn't have enough creativity, he doesn't have a good enough shot, to be a top line player.

 

What has anyone seen in his game to make them think he should be given more responsibility?

 

The people who watch this team closely and have spent years following this sport and reporting on it are saying he doesn't have what it takes. 

 

The same people who are saying we're wasting the competitive window are the ones saying let's just see what we have in him! Meanwhile this guy has done nothing to force a coach to keep him in the lineup. There are players who every time they are out on the ice are creating something, and it has nothing to do with being on the power play. They're doing the little things and those little things are being built on to create big opportunities. Lafreniere doesn't do that nearly enough.

 

It's really just time to move on, if he flourishes somewhere else that's great, but much like ADA it was never going to happen here. 

I don't really disagree with this, but for now I try to look at this way:

If you completely remove yourself from the fact he was #1OA, billed as a franchise altering player and the crushing disappointment that ensued, a 21 year old player coming off a 40 point season feels like someone we might want to keep around. He did that with no PP time to speak of and with line mates who, let's be fair, are varying degrees of disappointments themselves. 

If - and this is the caveat - he's willing to be paid in line with what he is and not his draft stock - I'm not really sure what's in it for the Rangers to cut ties, unless someone is willing to give you a real and significant upgrade at RW. 

[Pete]

30 minutes ago, Gravesy said:

I don't really disagree with this, but for now I try to look at this way:

If you completely remove yourself from the fact he was #1OA, billed as a franchise altering player and the crushing disappointment that ensued, a 21 year old player coming off a 40 point season feels like someone we might want to keep around. He did that with no PP time to speak of and with line mates who, let's be fair, are varying degrees of disappointments themselves. 

If - and this is the caveat - he's willing to be paid in line with what he is and not his draft stock - I'm not really sure what's in it for the Rangers to cut ties, unless someone is willing to give you a real and significant upgrade at RW. 

I think the problem with that line of thinking is you can't take out the fact that he's a one overall. And since the production is pretty easily replaceable, with either a cheap UFA or a younger guy (like at this point I would maybe even give Cullye or Trivigno a shot), the best course for both sides is to move on.

 

And frankly I think the biggest reason to move on is intangible. This is a guy who was just perfectly comfortable with failure. He has not developed since his draft, and he does not put in the extra work to do it. Even Valley said something on his podcast about him putting down the golf clubs and hitting the gym. How none of these guys have hit up Adam Oates yet is beyond me. But he's literally been the same exact player for 3 years, you can't say the same about the other two members of the kid line. 

[Bugg]

22 hours ago, LindG1000 said:

 

I'm willing to say the following:

 

1. Lafreniere has not had a real NHL coach in his three seasons.

2. Lafreniere is going to be a better bang-for-the-buck option than almost anyone else we could slot into the openings in our lineup

3. Lafreniere will not fetch anything that makes our lineup appreciably better next season in a trade. If we want futures - great, that's fine, but that's what we're getting if we trade him.

4. The juxtaposition between Lafreniere and Hughes could not be more stark than it was in this series. I hope that pissed him off. I doubt it did though.

 

I'm rolling the dice on him largely on circumstance more than anything else. Give Q or Lavi a year with the guy, let the cap relax, see if it works. And if not, at least when you ultimately move him as a sweetener or whatever, you're getting a guy back that makes a difference and not just a random late-1st or whatever.

Only real market I can see is the Francophone Habs taking a flyer on him, and they aren't giving you much. Simply it's gonna play out for at least another season. Pretty clear no matter what he needs an offseason of serious gyn work or forget it.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Bugg

[RJWantsTheCup]

Trivigno looked too small and not very smart in the Wolfpack game I went to.  It was only 1 game, but I wasn't impressed with him at all. 

[LindG1000]

44 minutes ago, Pete said:

I think the problem with that line of thinking is you can't take out the fact that he's a one overall. And since the production is pretty easily replaceable, with either a cheap UFA or a younger guy (like at this point I would maybe even give Cullye or Trivigno a shot), the best course for both sides is to move on.

 

And frankly I think the biggest reason to move on is intangible. This is a guy who was just perfectly comfortable with failure. He has not developed since his draft, and he does not put in the extra work to do it. Even Valley said something on his podcast about him putting down the golf clubs and hitting the gym. How none of these guys have hit up Adam Oates yet is beyond me. But he's literally been the same exact player for 3 years, you can't say the same about the other two members of the kid line. 

 

Couldn't agree with that more. Assuming this is true (since it's at least somewhat speculative/hearsay), it is without a doubt the biggest reason to move on. 

[Pete]

1 minute ago, LindG1000 said:

 

Couldn't agree with that more. Assuming this is true (since it's at least somewhat speculative/hearsay), it is without a doubt the biggest reason to move on. 

I mean even if you take the golf club line out of the equation, it's fairly evident that this guy has not progressed one bit since you stepped onto the ice at msg. 

[RJWantsTheCup]

If they can manage to somehow come up with a 1st or 2nd line RW for Lafraniere they have to strongly consider making the move.

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

If they can manage to somehow come up with a 1st or 2nd line RW for Lafraniere they have to strongly consider making the move.

Here's the other move, move Kreider for picks and prospects, sign Tarasenko, promote Lafreniere.

 

In my mind that's a dice worth rolling. 

 

Folks who want to keep this guy, that's the most realistic scenario to get the most out of him. Having him just sit here on the third line due to sunk cost is not the option. 

 

I'm not advocating that move, I'm just saying it's a move that's there. 

[Morphinity 2.0]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

Here's the other move, move Kreider for picks and prospects, sign Tarasenko, promote Lafreniere.

 

In my mind that's a dice worth rolling. 

 

Folks who want to keep this guy, that's the most realistic scenario to get the most out of him. Having him just sit here on the third line due to sunk cost is not the option. 

 

I'm not advocating that move, I'm just saying it's a move that's there. 

You just said 

Quote

Let's go through it again, he's not fast enough, he's not strong enough, he doesn't have enough hockey sense, he doesn't have enough creativity, he doesn't have a good enough shot, to be a top line player.

And now you want to promote him to the top-6?!

 

[Gravesy]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

I think the problem with that line of thinking is you can't take out the fact that he's a one overall.

Of course you can, provided 

a) he's willing to accept a deal in line with his play and

b) the return in a potential trade isn't in line with his draft pedigree

 

1 hour ago, Pete said:

And since the production is pretty easily replaceable, with either a cheap UFA or a younger guy

Is it though?

I'm not sure the league is full of pending UFA's who can put up 40-50 on the 3rd line for +- 2.5 aav.

 

Look, I don't really disagree with your assessment of him, it's just that I'm really not sure there's value in trading him just to get rid vs keeping him at a low cost with the 10% chance he's a 50 point guy when fully developed. If he can get me a legit mid 6 RW who fits under the cap I'm all ears, don't get me wrong.

[Vodka Drunkenski]

Should’ve started in the A to begin with

[Morphinity 2.0]

2 minutes ago, Vodka Drunkenski said:

Should’ve started in the A to begin with

He couldn't! 

[Vodka Drunkenski]

1 minute ago, Morphinity 2.0 said:

He couldn't! 

[Sharpshooter]

He sucks.

 

/end thread

 

Have a great offseason, everybody.

[Pete]

32 minutes ago, Morphinity 2.0 said:

You just said 

And now you want to promote him to the top-6?!

 

Go back and read the last line of my post homie. 

[Pete]

18 minutes ago, Gravesy said:

Of course you can, provided 

a) he's willing to accept a deal in line with his play and

b) the return in a potential trade isn't in line with his draft pedigree

 

I just don't agree with that. There's just too many expectations and you can't have him sitting here with Jack Hughes across the river. Nothing he does will ever be good enough, It's just a toxic environment. 

 

Quote

Is it though?

 

I'm not sure the league is full of pending UFA's who can put up 40-50 on the 3rd line for +- 2.5 aav.

Yes, I think it's very easy to find a 40 point third line wing. Minnesota just signed Johansson to a two-year 2 million dollar deal. 

 

Quote

Look, I don't really disagree with your assessment of him, it's just that I'm really not sure there's value in trading him just to get rid vs keeping him at a low cost with the 10% chance he's a 50 point guy when fully developed. If he can get me a legit mid 6 RW who fits under the cap I'm all ears, don't get me wrong.

I don't agree with all of the 10% chance of him turning into this or 20% chance turning into that, those numbers are just made up that, they're not based in any kind of data. 

 

I've been saying that I don't care if they run the same team back out next year as long as there's a new coach. I'm just saying there's plenty of reason to cut bait on him so I wouldn't be angry if they did. 

[RJWantsTheCup]

37 minutes ago, Pete said:

Here's the other move, move Kreider for picks and prospects, sign Tarasenko, promote Lafreniere.

 

In my mind that's a dice worth rolling. 

 

Folks who want to keep this guy, that's the most realistic scenario to get the most out of him. Having him just sit here on the third line due to sunk cost is not the option. 

 

I'm not advocating that move, I'm just saying it's a move that's there. 

I'm all for signing Tarasenko if it's possible.   Wouldn't trade Kreider, but I would move 1 of the other LW's if the price was right.  There really isn't anyone that's performance in the playoffs made them untouchable as far as trades except for Igor.

 

[LindG1000]

36 minutes ago, Pete said:

I mean even if you take the golf club line out of the equation, it's fairly evident that this guy has not progressed one bit since you stepped onto the ice at msg. 

Right, but it's also within reason to attribute a lot of that to ice time and coaching without the rest of the context you're bringing in via Vally.

 

If Laf is just happy to be in the NHL, is perfectly fine being a third liner, has no work ethic beyond that, and really doesn't take the non-ice work seriously `- that's a massive strike against him. 

[Pete]

1 minute ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

I'm all for signing Tarasenko if it's possible.   Wouldn't trade Kreider, but I would move 1 of the other LW's if the price was right.  There really isn't anyone that's performance in the playoffs made them untouchable as far as trades except for Igor.

 

"1 of the other LW" means Panarin who's immoveable, to the point where people should stop talking about it.

 

Even if Drury wanted to move him, and there is no indication that he does, bread first needs to want out and there's no indication that HE does. Then you need to find a trade partner which would require approval from the player, the requisite assets and cap room coming back to make the trade worthwhile, just a bunch of dreams from people on message boards.

 

I'm not saying it's impossible to trade him, I'm saying out of all the suggestions none of them are viable or realistic, and even if they are they don't make the team better. 

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

Right, but it's also within reason to attribute a lot of that to ice time and coaching without the rest of the context you're bringing in via Vally.

 

If Laf is just happy to be in the NHL, is perfectly fine being a third liner, has no work ethic beyond that, and really doesn't take the non-ice work seriously `- that's a massive strike against him. 

I don't think you can blame coaching and ice time on the fact that he has done nothing in the offseason to better himself. Again, why isn't he working with a power skating coach or a skills coach? The whole kid line should be training with Adam Oates. They're not. The team can't force them to do anything they don't want to do it during the off season, all they can do is suggest. But it's up to the player to do it themselves. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Pete

[RJWantsTheCup]

1 of the other LW's means donut boy or Panarin.  

More than likely next season's opening roster is going to be mostly the same guys except for the UFA's that they aren't going to be able to re-sign.

[LindG1000]

7 minutes ago, Pete said:

I don't think you can blame coaching and ice time on the fact that he has done nothing in the offseason to better himself. Again, why isn't he working with a power skating coach or a skills coach? The whole kid line should be training with Adam Oates. They're not. The team can't force them to do anything they don't want to do it during the off season, all they can do is suggest. But it's up to the player to do it themselves. 

Homie, answering your own question here. 

[Sharpshooter]

Not only is he not that good, he's also lazy too. Hooray.