It's Time to Have the Lafrenière Conversation

[Sharpshooter]

Trocheck was maybe the biggest disappointment out of all them for me. He was basically brought in for this kind of hockey, and was basically a non factor in the postseason.

[BrooksBurner]

10 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Trocheck was maybe the biggest disappointment out of all them for me. He was basically brought in for this kind of hockey, and was basically a non factor in the postseason.

 

He was straddled to Panarin. Panarin brings down everyone in the playoffs.

 

5v5 playoff xGF%:

 

Panarin w/ Trocheck (62 TOI): 35.37

Panarin w/o Trocheck (36 TOI): 24.22

Trocheck w/o Panarin (35 TOI): 60

 

Panarin w/ Chytil (20 TOI): 24.37

Panarin w/o Chytil (78 TOI): 34.12

Chytil w/o Panarin (67 TOI): 47.99

 

Panarin w/ Zib (13 TOI): 26.41

Panarin w/o Zib (85 TOI): 32.37

Zib w/o Panarin (73 TOI): 47.20

 

Panarin literally killed every line he got put with. Garbage.

[Sharpshooter]

4 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

He was straddled to Panarin. Panarin brings down everyone in the playoffs.

 

5v5 playoff xGF%:

 

Panarin w/ Trocheck (62 TOI): 35.37

Panarin w/o Trocheck (36 TOI): 24.22

Trocheck w/o Panarin (35 TOI): 60

 

Panarin w/ Chytil (20 TOI): 24.37

Panarin w/o Chytil (78 TOI): 34.12

Chytil w/o Panarin (67 TOI): 47.99

 

Panarin w/ Zib (13 TOI): 26.41

Panarin w/o Zib (85 TOI): 32.37

Zib w/o Panarin (73 TOI): 47.20

 

Panarin literally killed every line he got put with. Garbage.

Yeah, definitely a culprit, although still disappointed overall. I felt his body language just wasn't the best either. Whether that also had to do with playing Panarin, I don't know. Just not great vibes from him in general.

[The Dude]

4 hours ago, Gravesy said:

I mean, maybe my timeline is off here. But as I recall, he got some time on PP1 and did ok as a net front presence. It was a short period though, and was done as a project when Kane arrived? 

Like I've said, I'm not trying to white knight for Lafreniere. I agree with most if not all of the criticism. 

I'm just not entirely sure there's great value to be had in trading him at this point. 

And, for now and to the contrary, the value play for me seems to be keeping him around at a low cost. You can scoff at the 40 point thing all you want, but it's still 40 points, from a 21 year old, playing predominantly on the 3rd line with similarly disappointing young players and minimal PP time. If he can do that, with all his flaws, I'm not yet willing to accept there isn't a 50+ point upside there - however small you want to say the chance of that upside becoming reality is.

That is until someone shows me a trade scenario that I like. If there's real value to be had from trading him I wouldn't be against it. But I have a hard time seeing it.

 

He was on the first unit,  then moved to the 2nd unit. The 2nd unit became even less desirable to watch.  Everything died on his stick. 

 

 

He can score 50 points and still not be a fit. He's more of the same. He's not physical. He's not a shooter. He's not a set up man. He's just there. The team needs more players molded in a gritty style of play, that want to shoot the puck. Not the ballerina act we see from Lafrenière. 

 

I'm sure I'll be told he's 2nd or 3rd or 4th on the team in hits for forwards, so that proves hes physical... .  I just don't accept the stat as a connection to being physical. There's not much physical in Lafrenières game  

 

If he stays, he has to move to RW. He would fit there, only because they don't have anyone else. He can underwhelm, get knocked off the puck and be afraid of contact on a RW. It's better than nothing.  

[Pete]

18 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

He was straddled to Panarin. Panarin brings down everyone in the playoffs.

 

5v5 playoff xGF%:

 

Panarin w/ Trocheck (62 TOI): 35.37

Panarin w/o Trocheck (36 TOI): 24.22

Trocheck w/o Panarin (35 TOI): 60

 

Panarin w/ Chytil (20 TOI): 24.37

Panarin w/o Chytil (78 TOI): 34.12

Chytil w/o Panarin (67 TOI): 47.99

 

Panarin w/ Zib (13 TOI): 26.41

Panarin w/o Zib (85 TOI): 32.37

Zib w/o Panarin (73 TOI): 47.20

 

Panarin literally killed every line he got put with. Garbage.

Bro you pay way too much attention to these advanced stats as your single source of truth. It's like the only thing you're basing your argument on, and it's not much of an argument if that's the case. 

 

Smart people are going to look at the underlying reason that Panarin was unproductive, and it's not going to be because he stinks or forgot to play hockey. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Pete

[The Dude]

41 minutes ago, Pete said:

Yea Trocheck sucks. Even went into game seven with a defeatist attitude. 

Meh. He was the only guy that was consistently on the  goalies doorstep and mixing it up. Played physical.  I don't know how Gallant just couldn't see that the Panarin Trocheck combo, did not work.  It just didn't.  They looked horrible.  In theory,  they should have been great together. You'd think their games would mesh well.  It just didn't.  

 

I'd like to see if Trocheck could slide over to a RW, move Chytil up to 2C and figure out another RW and bring in a more traditional 3C via Lafrenière trade. I know Trocheck has played wing early in his career.  But I think it was LW. Obviously you'd use him on the draw...

 

[RangersIn7]

On 5/2/2023 at 10:52 PM, Br4d said:

Laffy has 47 goals at the age of 21.  Kakko has 44 goals at 21.  Patrick Kane is the only current Ranger with more goals scored at 21.  Mika had 43.

There’s that too
 

[BrooksBurner]

24 minutes ago, Pete said:

Bro you pay way too much attention to these advanced stats as your single source of truth. It's like the only thing you're basing your argument on, and it's not much of an argument if that's the case. 

 

Smart people are going to look at the underlying reason that Panarin was unproductive, and it's not going to be because he stinks or forgot to play hockey. 

 

That's incorrect. I'm using it to affirm what most everyone can see on the ice. The counter to it is "bro trust me, Panarin isn't the problem". Pass on that.

 

But I digress. There's another thread for discussing Panarin's obvious playoff atrocities.

[jsm7302]

13 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

There’s that too
 

The question is how many pro seasons to attain that number as opposed to age.

[RangersIn7]

2 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

That's incorrect. I'm using it to affirm what most everyone can see on the ice. The counter to it is "bro trust me, Panarin isn't the problem". Pass on that.

 

But I digress. There's another thread for discussing Panarin's obvious playoff atrocities.

Any trade you make wherein Panarin goes the other way, you’re losing.

[Gravesy]

57 minutes ago, Pete said:

Once again, look at across the river at Jack Hughes. The difference is not power play time lol.

Why on earth should I look at Jack Hughes? It's as relevant as looking at Connor McDavid.

Those guys are elite players. Lafreniere isn't in Hughes stratosphere, so the comparisons of the two are a complete waste of oxygen at this point.

Also, I never said anything to the effect of "the difference is pp time". They are an ocean apart.

 

You need to let it go and look at him for what he is. Not a 1st OA. Not someone who was supposed to be franchise altering. Just a 21 year old middle of the lineup player who produces OK for where he is. 

The entire point is, until someone comes up with a trade scenario that represents real, tangible value, I think the best way forward is to keep him at a low cost. That's it.

[BrooksBurner]

10 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Any trade you make wherein Panarin goes the other way, you’re losing.

It is not that black and white. Yes, whatever actual return is in the trade won’t replace 95 points, but the trade isn’t made in a vacuum. The results after a trade depend on a lot of factors, and there would be no clear answer on that for at least a half season to full season.

 

That kind of segues into who this thread is about. Laf. He stands to greatly benefit if Panarin is out. Probably more than half the board thinks he’s a bust with zero salvageable traits, but I don’t agree.

[RichieNextel305]

Trocheck was brutal. I, too, thought he’d be a big add for this time of year. He played great with Carolina against us last year and I was excited for that snarl to be on our side this time around.

 

I don’t know what it was or why it happened, but he looked completely allergic to the puck throughout the whole series. I’m serious. Watch any footage you want and it literally looks like the guy is trying to stick handle a basketball anytime the puck came near him.

 

He, like several other high paid players on this roster, we’re horrible in this series. And as bad as Panarin was or Zibanejad was, that is no ones fault but his own. A lot of the mistakes he made and whatever it was that attributed to his bad play falls on his own individual plate, the same way it does for everyone else.

Edited May 4, 2023 by RichieNextel305

[Karan]

7 minutes ago, RichieNextel305 said:

Trocheck was brutal. I, too, thought he’d be a big add for this time of year. He played great with Carolina against us last year and I was excited for that snarl to be on our side this time around.

 

I don’t know what it was or why it happened, but he looked completely allergic to the puck throughout the whole series. I’m serious. Watch any footage you want and it literally looks like the guy is trying to stick handle a basketball anytime the puck came near him.

 

He, like several other high paid players on this roster, we’re horrible in this series. And as bad as Panarin was or Zibanejad was, that is no ones fault but his own. A lot of the mistakes he made and whatever it was that attributed to his bad play falls on his own individual plate, the same way it does for everyone else.

 

Trocheck was disappointingly absent in the first round but he's been improperly used by Gallant/coaching staff all year and just hasn't had any consistent linemates. I doubt even the guy knows what his expected role on the team/line is. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Karan

[Br4d]

59 minutes ago, jsm7302 said:

The question is how many pro seasons to attain that number as opposed to age.

 

With Mika the answer was 4.  After 4 seasons Mika had 43 goals.  Kakko has 44 after 4 seasons.  Laffy has 47 after 3.

[jsm7302]

6 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

With Mika the answer was 4.  After 4 seasons Mika had 43 goals.  Kakko has 44 after 4 seasons.  Laffy has 47 after 3.

Thank you for following up on my laziness to look it up myself. Haha

 

That's promising hopefully. Def see a bit more promise from Kakko than Laf but who knows what happens in a year or two. 

[Sharpshooter]

As far as the kid line goes, all three of them set new career high in points. So, that's something. lol

Edited May 4, 2023 by Sharpshooter

[Myusername]

I know it seems bleak but I think there's still a good bit of untapped potential with Laf. I would at minimum see how does under another coach. I'd hate to discard another player for scraps and watch him light it up elsewhere. Too much trauma already

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Gravesy said:

Why on earth should I look at Jack Hughes? It's as relevant as looking at Connor McDavid.

Those guys are elite players. Lafreniere isn't in Hughes stratosphere, so the comparisons of the two are a complete waste of oxygen at this point.

Also, I never said anything to the effect of "the difference is pp time". They are an ocean apart.

 

You need to let it go and look at him for what he is. Not a 1st OA. Not someone who was supposed to be franchise altering. Just a 21 year old middle of the lineup player who produces OK for where he is. 

The entire point is, until someone comes up with a trade scenario that represents real, tangible value, I think the best way forward is to keep him at a low cost. That's it.

No, the people who are suggesting we should trade Panarin in order to give Lafreniere a chance because they're still big mad need to let this go.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Karan said:

 

Trocheck was disappointingly absent in the first round but he's been improperly used by Gallant/coaching staff all year and just hasn't had any consistent linemates. I doubt even the guy knows what his expected role on the team/line is. 

Yes, and we heard this in the exit interviews. GG "lets you do your thing". Not "GG give me a role and told me what was expected of me".

 

Tro is a third line center who should not be given prime offensive opportunities with players who need the puck and/or don't play in straight lines. Kreider/Tro(/Vesey) was a combo that was successful, yet abondoned.

[Karan]

9 minutes ago, Pete said:

Yes, and we heard this in the exit interviews. GG "lets you do your thing". Not "GG give me a role and told me what was expected of me".

 

Tro is a third line center who should not be given prime offensive opportunities with players who need the puck and/or don't play in straight lines. Kreider/Tro(/Vesey) was a combo that was successful, yet abondoned.

 

That was the only line combination that seemed to be a natural fit for Trocheck where all 3 players played with the same kinda jam rather than a finesse game. Could've been a successful line in the playoffs if they'd been given 15-20 games together in the regular season to build chemistry, but nope let's try and throw Trocheck with guys who like to play an East-West puck possession style of play. 

[The Dude]

2 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

Any trade you make wherein Panarin goes the other way, you’re losing.

If all the salary goes with him. Who cares? But that isn't happening.  

[RJWantsTheCup]

Just throwing ideas out there.  Does trading Miller & Lafraniere get a legit 1st line RW or a top 6 center?  If you get a RW he can play with Kreider & Zibby.  2nd line of Panarin, Chytil, Kakko.  3rd line Cuylle or Othmann, Trochek Vesey.  4th line Cuylle or Othmann, Goodrow & Brodzinski.  D Lindgren & Fox.  Jones & Trouba.  Robertson or Harpur & Schneider.

If you get a center move Trochek to RW. 

[Pete]

27 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

Just throwing ideas out there.  Does trading Miller & Lafraniere get a legit 1st line RW or a top 6 center?  If you get a RW he can play with Kreider & Zibby.  2nd line of Panarin, Chytil, Kakko.  3rd line Cuylle or Othmann, Trochek Vesey.  4th line Cuylle or Othmann, Goodrow & Brodzinski.  D Lindgren & Fox.  Jones & Trouba.  Robertson or Harpur & Schneider.

If you get a center move Trochek to RW. 

Agree with lot of this, would move Chytil to RW before Tro. Just let him concentrate on scoring and not defensive responsibilities. 

[BrooksBurner]

44 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

Just throwing ideas out there.  Does trading Miller & Lafraniere get a legit 1st line RW or a top 6 center?  If you get a RW he can play with Kreider & Zibby.  2nd line of Panarin, Chytil, Kakko.  3rd line Cuylle or Othmann, Trochek Vesey.  4th line Cuylle or Othmann, Goodrow & Brodzinski.  D Lindgren & Fox.  Jones & Trouba.  Robertson or Harpur & Schneider.

If you get a center move Trochek to RW. 

 

That amounts to X instead of Tarasenko on the top line, hoping Othman does well instead of Lafreniere in the top 9, and hoping in Jones over Miller. It's just not different enough for me personally.