The Rangers Need a Right-Wing (Again)

[Br4d]

4 hours ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Why would we trade one of the best 1D's in the league for a RW? Creating a huge hole in our lineup to fill a less important hole?

 

Because there's a lot more to Fox than just his points. And do you really want to see Trouba on the 1st PP unit? 

 

If the Rangers traded Fox Miller would be the guy on PP1.

 

Not that the Rangers should trade Fox.  He's probably the most valuable player on the current team both in value and on the ice.  Only Igor is close.

[Phil]

10 hours ago, RichieNextel305 said:

I don’t think it is. All 3 have, at certain points, been great players come playoff time. 
 

Listen, I know the wounds are still fresh. And believe me, I am furious with the top players on this team and how little they looked against New Jersey. And I’m not looking to run it back 100%. But, if you remove Tarasenko from the team (likely given what he will get on the market), you lose firepower that we were looking to acquire before the deadline. Before the deadline, it was easy to see this team needed help up front. We went out, got Vladdy and the lineup looked more full. And then everyone thought Kane was overkill, etc etc.

 

I’m not saying we don’t need more grit, more sandpaper, who doesn’t? But we also need to realize that having some finesse guys also wouldn’t hurt. You can’t just look at what’s left now and be like “look at them!” It’s recency bias. If our horses played like horses, we beat the Devils; especially after being given a 2-0 lead in the series. Our top guys, all of them, either didn’t show up at all or showed up too little.

 

Again, I’m not saying to go all out to bring him back. But if he gets fixed this summer, or the rest is recommended and he’s willing to stay for well below market value, it’s something to entertain.

 

Lets see what Drury does. I’ve said this before and I’ll keep saying it: Unpredictable. That’s the best way to describe this summer; it’s going to be unpredictable. I have no idea what Drury does here. 

 

What have you done for me lately? I don't care what a guy did eight years ago on a different team, or how many PPP Zib had last season. These guys are piss poor 5v5 players and are Gerber baby soft, soft, soft. The end result you're pining for here is to double down on that again, as if the lesson learned about why that fails spectacularly in the playoffs wasn't hard enough on us all.

 

The issue with this team is composition. They're a high-skilled regular season team that wilts in the playoffs when they can't dine out on the power play and opposing teams can actually game plan against them in highly-physical, fast-paced series where the opponent doesn't change every other night.

 

The prescription to that cannot be to add more slow and soft players, let alone one set to get off-season hip surgery, as if that's not going to make him even slower. It's mind-boggling to me that anyone would want to go through this shit again.

[LindG1000]

3 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

What have you done for me lately? I don't care what a guy did eight years ago on a different team, or how many PPP Zib had last season. These guys are Gerber baby soft, soft, soft, and the end result you're pining for here is to double down on that again, as if the lesson learned about why that fails spectacularly in the playoffs wasn't hard enough on us all.

 

The issue with this team is composition. They're a soft, soft, soft high-skilled team, just like Toronto. The prescription to that cannot be to add more slow and soft players, let alone one set to get offseason hip surgery, as if that's not going to make him even slower.

 

I think @Pete has it right when we're talking about speed. Speed is not just flying around like Michael Grabner. Speed is decision-making and getting to the right place at the right time. It's knowing your playbook and your system - and for that, you need intelligent players (which we have in spades and drafted for) and great coaching (womp womp).

 

We can add tougher, harder players that may not be footspeed demons so long as they're able to execute on the system in a timely manner. And we absolutely should, because as I've said a thousand times - the cap is a serious issue leaguewide and costs will be lower for the middle class of FAs this year. Exactly where we need to shop if we can make the room to do it.

[Pete]

11 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

What have you done for me lately? I don't care what a guy did eight years ago on a different team, or how many PPP Zib had last season. These guys are piss poor 5v5 players and are Gerber baby soft, soft, soft. The end result you're pining for here is to double down on that again, as if the lesson learned about why that fails spectacularly in the playoffs wasn't hard enough on us all.

 

The issue with this team is composition. They're a high-skilled regular season team that wilts in the playoffs when they can't dine out on the power play and opposing teams can actually game plan against them in highly-physical, fast-paced series where the opponent doesn't change every other night.

 

The prescription to that cannot be to add more slow and soft players, let alone one set to get off-season hip surgery, as if that's not going to make him even slower. It's mind-boggling to me that anyone would want to go through this shit again.

Nobody knows what his hip issue actually is, so I don't understand how you automatically think it's going to make him slower when he gets it fixed.

 

You're also oddly obsessed with the soft conversation, that's not why they lost to the Devils or to the Lightning last season. They didn't get manhandled physically. 

[Phil]

9 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

 

I think @Pete has it right when we're talking about speed. Speed is not just flying around like Michael Grabner. Speed is decision-making and getting to the right place at the right time. It's knowing your playbook and your system - and for that, you need intelligent players (which we have in spades and drafted for) and great coaching (womp womp).

 

We can add tougher, harder players that may not be footspeed demons so long as they're able to execute on the system in a timely manner. And we absolutely should, because as I've said a thousand times - the cap is a serious issue leaguewide and costs will be lower for the middle class of FAs this year. Exactly where we need to shop if we can make the room to do it.

 

Correct, but speed is also speed. Fast decision-making can certainly help, but slow teams are slow teams, and the slower you are, the less likely you are to succeed in this NHL climate. Because the teams who are fastest aren't just fast for the sake of fast either — they're also smart and making fast decisions. It's double-dangerous.

 

The way I see all of this, the number one, two, and three premiums in the modern game are skating, skating, and skating. If you are slow, or a poor skater (take Laugh or Kakko as an example) it's painfully obvious how much harder it is for you to succeed relative to your peers who aren't.

 

8 minutes ago, Pete said:

Nobody knows what his hip issue actually is, so I don't understand how you automatically think it's going to make him slower when he gets it fixed.

 

You're also oddly obsessed with the soft conversation, that's not why they lost to the Devils or to the Lightning last season. They didn't get manhandled physically. 

 

In what world is a professional athlete having hip surgery of any kind a positive? Everything I've read, that I'm sure you have, too, suggests that whatever procedure Kane gets will put him on the shelf for months.

 

I automatically think it's going to make him slower because the evidence isn't on his side. Older players don't magically get faster, and that's not accounting for major lower-body surgery.

 

Also, you're still misunderstanding my entire position on "soft" play. I'm not asking for Boogaard and Reaves. I'm asking for actually hard to play against players who play aggressive offensive hockey. Skating and forechecking are at the top of that list for me, followed after by the #actaultoughness you'd rightfully think I love — after the whistle shit talking, face washing, ankle slashing, etc. Those are classic toughness characteristics that fall into the "players with a fuck you mentality" category Mike Rupp talks about as a requirement to win the Cup.

 

I've suggested Jesper Fast and Tomas Nosek this off-season, not Dylan McIlrath and Donald Brashear.

[RichieNextel305]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

Nobody knows what his hip issue actually is, so I don't understand how you automatically think it's going to make him slower when he gets it fixed.

 

You're also oddly obsessed with the soft conversation, that's not why they lost to the Devils or to the Lightning last season. They didn't get manhandled physically. 

Agreed on both points.

 

Marchand had hip surgery last summer. It didn’t look like he came back slower or had issues.

 

And agreed again with the physicality aspect. I don’t look at what just happened vs. the Devils and say we physically got run out of the building by their brute strength.

[Pete]

43 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Correct, but speed is also speed. Fast decision-making can certainly help, but slow teams are slow teams, and the slower you are, the less likely you are to succeed in this NHL climate. Because the teams who are fastest aren't just fast for the sake of fast either — they're also smart and making fast decisions. It's double-dangerous.

 

The way I see all of this, the number one, two, and three premiums in the modern game are skating, skating, and skating. If you are slow, or a poor skater (take Laugh or Kakko as an example) it's painfully obvious how much harder it is for you to succeed relative to your peers who aren't.

 

 

In what world is a professional athlete having hip surgery of any kind a positive? Everything I've read, that I'm sure you have, too, suggests that whatever procedure Kane gets will put him on the shelf for months.

 

I automatically think it's going to make him slower because the evidence isn't on his side. Older players don't magically get faster, and that's not accounting for major lower-body surgery.

 

Also, you're still misunderstanding my entire position on "soft" play. I'm not asking for Boogaard and Reaves. I'm asking for actually hard to play against players who play aggressive offensive hockey. Skating and forechecking are at the top of that list for me, followed after by the #actaultoughness you'd rightfully think I love — after the whistle shit talking, face washing, ankle slashing, etc. Those are classic toughness characteristics that fall into the "players with a fuck you mentality" category Mike Rupp talks about as a requirement to win the Cup.

 

I've suggested Jesper Fast and Tomas Nosek this off-season, not Dylan McIlrath and Donald Brashear.

I'm Not an orthopedist, so I don't know if he's going to make it 100% back or not. If it's something like a labrum issue, that's not really going to affect his foot speed. Whether he makes it back all the way is likely dependent on how seriously he takes his rehab. But I'm not going to automatically make an assumption that he will be even slower.

 

And I agree with you on players who are tough to play against, but I think there's a lot of ways to achieve that goal. 

[Phil]

I mean, Kane wasn't fast to begin with, is my point, and he's gonna be 34 or 35? Odds are he'll get slower, not quicker. I will say this much in his defense: he's exactly the type of "fast thinker" (on offense) who can mostly make up for that, but he basically crawls on the ice. The Rangers got lapped in that Devils series, and I'm just not interested in doing anything to this roster that's at all likely to repeat that same outcome.

 

Kane is also a wallflower, just like the rest of the team. It's why I keep coming back to it being a compositional issue. That they had a garbage coach made shit so much worse, but this is back-to-back coaches who couldn't get them to the middle of the ice no matter how much they kicked and screamed. That's what I mean about them being soft. They play a soft, high-skill game that makes for incredible highlights in the regular season when opponents change every night. It fails spectacularly when you have to will your way to victory in the playoffs.

[BrooksBurner]

I’d consider Kane on a cheap contract if Panarin were traded. I’m not sure if Panarin not being here drastically affects Kane’s desire to be here, but I think they can reconfigure the roster enough after moving Panarin that re-adding Kane into it is tolerable.

[Phil]

Same. I just don't want to double/triple/quadruple down on a combination we can basically guarantee is gonna repeat performance next Spring.

[BrooksBurner]

13 hours ago, Jdog99 said:

wtf can't panarin play RW? for 11.6m he should be able to.

 

he does do pretty well adapting to various placement on the pp, i think.

 

kreider-zib-panarin

 

and if he doesnt like it he can agree to a trade...

Let’s just pretend he doesn’t want to do it and trade him anyway.

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

Same. I just don't want to double/triple/quadruple down on a combination we can basically guarantee is gonna repeat performance next Spring.

Agreed. I’m having a hard enough time considering Tarasenko as long as Panarin is here, and that’s not because Tarasenko is “soft” by the standards you mentioned earlier. He has no issues taking the body, and will get in on the forecheck when needed, but it’s not the core of his game. We need more guys who want to live and breathe that way of playing. Truth be told, I’d rather have Tarasenko on the roster rather than Panarin, even if the money washed out. He just has that edge to his game that complements how the team needs to play, but doesn’t necessarily drive the team to play that way.

[Phil]

2 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Agreed. I’m having a hard enough time considering Tarasenko as long as Panarin is here, and that’s not because Tarasenko is “soft” by the standards you mentioned earlier. He has no issues taking the body, and will get in on the forecheck when needed, but it’s not the core of his game. We need more guys who want to live and breathe that way of playing. Truth be told, I’d rather have Tarasenko on the roster rather than Panarin, even if the money washed out. He just has that edge to his game that complements how the team needs to play, but doesn’t necessarily drive the team to play that way.

 

I kinda wouldn't. He was good, not great, but still relies on the skill around him to make anything happen.

 

I really think the best course of action here is to force these guys to play a harder game by injecting the top-six with someone who will do the work. The team needs a Fast/Hagelin type. Someone who will step in and do all the dirty work, and drag guys into the fight. Forecheck-first mentality.

[LindG1000]

34 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

I kinda wouldn't. He was good, not great, but still relies on the skill around him to make anything happen.

 

I really think the best course of action here is to force these guys to play a harder game by injecting the top-six with someone who will do the work. The team needs a Fast/Hagelin type. Someone who will step in and do all the dirty work, and drag guys into the fight. Forecheck-first mentality.

 

My first thought here was Brendan Gallagher, but then I looked at his contract and noped the fuck out of that idea.

 

A few decent fits for us that likely make some sense in our cap structure:

 

Artturi Lehkonen

Brandon Tanev

Tanner Pearson (if healthy)

Ryan Hartman (possibly a good deadline target if the Wild go tits-up)

Nino Neiderreiter

[Phil]

I've mentioned Nino as well. One year left at $4 million (then UFA).

 

Hartman I'd be all in on, but like you said, he's probably a total non-starter unless the Wild collapse.

 

Lehkonen and Tanev are also non-starters. They're playing key roles for their teams who love them.

 

I forgot Pearson even existed. He hasn't played a near full season since 2018-19, so kinda hard pass on that.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, BrooksBurner said:

I’d consider Kane on a cheap contract if Panarin were traded. I’m not sure if Panarin not being here drastically affects Kane’s desire to be here, but I think they can reconfigure the roster enough after moving Panarin that re-adding Kane into it is tolerable.

But he won't be. 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

Same. I just don't want to double/triple/quadruple down on a combination we can basically guarantee is gonna repeat performance next Spring.

Y'all need to stop acting like they can't play together anymore. It needs to be stuck with for more than 2.5 games. 

[RichieNextel305]

15 minutes ago, Pete said:

Y'all need to stop acting like they can't play together anymore. It needs to be stuck with for more than 2.5 games. 

Gallant seemed to become very frustrated very quickly with them playing together. The passing and over passing was an issue there. But I wish we could have seen it for more than a flash.

 

If Kane does return, I’d give them a look together again. And I’d be looking at Chytil to be their center. 

[Phil]

34 minutes ago, Pete said:

Y'all need to stop acting like they can't play together anymore. It needs to be stuck with for more than 2.5 games. 

 

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the idea of running back Zib, Kreider, Kane, and Panarin in the top-six. Might be tantalizing in the regular season, but you'll get the same result come playoffs. They're all wallflowers.

[Phil]

36 minutes ago, Pete said:

But he won't be. 

 

Probably not, but Florida moved Huberdeau after he set an NHL record for assists. Shit happens.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

 

Probably not, but Florida moved Huberdeau after he set an NHL record for assists. Shit happens.

Remind me what trade protection he had? 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

 

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the idea of running back Zib, Kreider, Kane, and Panarin in the top-six. Might be tantalizing in the regular season, but you'll get the same result come playoffs. They're all wallflowers.

Remind me how many cups Kane has? You're fixated on this wallflower bit. What podcast is it from? 

[Phil]

26 minutes ago, Pete said:

Remind me what trade protection he had? 

 

None, which is why I said probably not. It's that, more than lack of desire, that I think lends toward assuming it's a no.

[Phil]

25 minutes ago, Pete said:

Remind me how many cups Kane has? You're fixated on this wallflower bit. What podcast is it from? 

 

Bro, you've known me for how long now? Marek. It's always Marek.

 

And I don't care how many Cups Kane has. He won them on teams years ago that were better balanced than this Rangers team. His teams were filled with "fuck you" players. This one isn't. Adding Kane to this group changes nothing. Tantalizing regular season, paralyzing playoffs. Guaranteed.

[Pete]

Just now, Phil said:

 

Bro, you've known me for how long now? Marek. It's always Marek.

 

And I don't care how many Cups Kane has. He won them on teams years ago that were better balanced than this Rangers team. His teams were filled with "fuck you" players. This one isn't. Adding Kane to this group changes nothing. Tantalizing regular season, paralyzing playoffs. Guaranteed.

Yeah, Don't buy it. You don't need that kind of thing in your top six, you need it more on your lower lines.

 

The third line being the kid line really screwed this team. 

 

Kreider Tro Vesey solves a good bit.