Mercogliano Rangers Expected to Sign Lafreniere to 2-year Bridge With $2.5–2.75m AAV

[Cash or Czech]

1 hour ago, BreakawayMachine said:

 

Yes. Whatever gets this guy off the team. I bet he wont break 15 goals this year.

It’s not like his play has been a detriment to the team, even if he hasn’t lived up to the 1OA billing. That’s a bad take

[Pete]

18 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

That sounds like Panarin’s last 10 playoff games.

Too bad we're talking about Lafreniere. Try staying on topic. 

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, Cash or Czech said:

It’s not like his play has been a detriment to the team, even if he hasn’t lived up to the 1OA billing. That’s a bad take

Not being able to rely on your number one overall draft pick for more than 40 points a season isn't a detriment to the team?

 

I'd like to challenge that take. 

[Cash or Czech]

24 minutes ago, Pete said:

Not being able to rely on your number one overall draft pick for more than 40 points a season isn't a detriment to the team?

 

I'd like to challenge that take. 

Most teams? Yes. Ours, who won the lottery on a 2% chance? No. Especially not with 90-100 point Panarin and 30-40 goal Kreider ahead of him on the left. 
 

Kakko on the other hand…the right side of the lineup has been a black hole for half a decade now. Underperforming other notorious RWs like Jesper Fast and Colin Blackwell

[Pete]

32 minutes ago, Cash or Czech said:

Most teams? Yes. Ours, who won the lottery on a 2% chance? No. Especially not with 90-100 point Panarin and 30-40 goal Kreider ahead of him on the left. 
 

Kakko on the other hand…the right side of the lineup has been a black hole for half a decade now. Underperforming other notorious RWs like Jesper Fast and Colin Blackwell

But Kakko is progressing.

 

When you strike out on a first round draft pick sets your organization back about a year. They've missed on Lias, Krav and now Laf. It's cumulative. 

 

When the 90-100pt players get old and their contracts run out, what happens then? When those players are neutralizing each other in the playoffs and you need depth, what happens then?

 

He is absolutely a detriment to the organization. As far as this specific team goes this year, I agree with you. But he's definitely hurting the org. 

[Keirik]

41 minutes ago, Pete said:

But Kakko is progressing.

 

When you strike out on a first round draft pick sets your organization back about a year. They've missed on Lias, Krav and now Laf. It's cumulative. 

 

When the 90-100pt players get old and their contracts run out, what happens then? When those players are neutralizing each other in the playoffs and you need depth, what happens then?

 

He is absolutely a detriment to the organization. As far as this specific team goes this year, I agree with you. But he's definitely hurting the org. 

My issue with your take is year 4 Kakko “progressing” is only good for one more point than year 3 Laf was, so what are we focusing on here? 

[Scott]

They both are underwhelming at best, Laf more so as the over hyped 1OA. How many years did it take Chytil to break the 25 point mark? Kid line was a heater for 3 playoff games when Chytil scored 5 in 3 games, that's it. The kid line hype was almost as overblown as Laugh's. Bummer all around. But hey I guess there's always tomorrow. Glass half full. 

[Br4d]

But don't you know that Lafreniere should have clearly outplayed Panarin and Kreider to push them aside and make an impact?  With no power play time?

 

We'd have to look at it more closely to know for sure but I'm betting Lafreniere is the all-time cock-blocked #1OA.

[Pete]

7 hours ago, Keirik said:

My issue with your take is year 4 Kakko “progressing” is only good for one more point than year 3 Laf was, so what are we focusing on here? 

A measure of progress is comparing a player from year 1 to now. Why are we comparing Lafreniere to Kakko last year?

 

Kakko is a visibly better player now than rookie Kakko. Lafreniere is pretty much the same guy that we saw in year 1.

 

Kakko has made more progress. Anyone watching both players sees that. Kakko is also a much better player than Lafreniere, despite not playing that many more games. 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Pete

[Pete]

15 minutes ago, Br4d said:

But don't you know that Lafreniere should have clearly outplayed Panarin and Kreider to push them aside and make an impact?  With no power play time?

 

We'd have to look at it more closely to know for sure but I'm betting Lafreniere is the all-time cock-blocked #1OA.

He could have outplayed Jimmy Vesey and Colin Blackwell and even Kakko for a spot on the right.

 

What happened there? 

 

Tyler Seguin came into a Bruins org with Cup aspirations on the third line. His play forced them to move him up the lineup the next year. You make it sound impossible. It's not. 

 

According to you, Panarin stinks anyway. Golden Boy should easily outplay him, no?

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Pete

[Br4d]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

He could have outplayed Jimmy Vesey and Colin Blackwell and even Kakko for a spot on the right.

 

What happened there? 

 

Yeah that's what you do with your #1 picks.  Ask them to change position right away at 19.  Happens *all* the time.

 

Point to one.

[Pete]

35 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

Yeah that's what you do with your #1 picks.  Ask them to change position right away at 19.  Happens *all* the time.

 

Point to one.

Seguin was a center who moved to RW. Pretty sure Taylor Hall was a C in junior as well. He came in as a LW. 

 

Laine also switched from RW to LW early. 

 

Happens all the time. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

36 minutes ago, Pete said:

A measure of progress is comparing a player from year 1 to now. Why are we comparing Lafreniere to Kakko last year?

 

Kakko is a visibly better player now than rookie Kakko. Lafreniere is pretty much the same guy that we saw in year 1.

 

Kakko has made more progress. Anyone watching both players sees that. Kakko is also a much better player than Lafreniere, despite not playing that many more games. 

 

 

 

It’s not that black and white. Year 1 Kakko was about the worst player in the NHL in over a decade. It was an all time bad season. Year 2 was a 29 point pace. When you set the bar that low, it’s easy to show incremental progress. Both of those seasons are less than anything Lafreniere has done in his career, and he had a lot more premium opportunity than Laffy ever did. Kakko has worked pretty hard to be in better physical shape, and that work ethic is an endearing pro quality to have, but let’s call a spade a spade here.

[Pete]

4 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

It’s not that black and white. Year 1 Kakko was about the worst player in the NHL in over a decade. It was an all time bad season. Year 2 was a 29 point pace. When you set the bar that low, it’s easy to show incremental progress. Both of those seasons are less than anything Lafreniere has done in his career, and he had a lot more premium opportunity than Laffy ever did. Kakko has worked pretty hard to be in better physical shape, and that work ethic is an endearing pro quality to have, but let’s call a spade a spade here.

Yes, follow your own advice and call a spade a spade. Kakko was worse as a rookie, and he's made massive progress. Lafreniere has made almost none.

 

Kind of like Hughes rookie year versus now. He was real bad as a rookie, now he's a star. Laugh is stagnant. 

 

And here's the thing... No one who's being honest with themselves can say that Laugh is better than Kakko through the eyeball test. And the narrative is that he's very coachable and is a very hard worker. Laugh not so much.

 

There's about a dozen reasons why there's more reason to have faith in Kakko than Laugh. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

11 minutes ago, Pete said:

Yes, follow your own advice and call a spade a spade. Kakko was worse as a rookie, and he's made massive progress. Lafreniere has made almost none.

 

Kind of like Hughes rookie year versus now. He was real bad as a rookie, now he's a star. Laugh is stagnant. 

 

And here's the thing... No one who's being honest with themselves can say that Laugh is better than Kakko through the eyeball test. And the narrative is that he's very coachable and is a very hard worker. Laugh not so much.

 

There's about a dozen reasons why there's more reason to have faith in Kakko than Laugh. 

 

Again, it's easy to make massive progress off historically bad. Lafreniere has produced more than Kakko, and has been a year ahead of Kakko production wise. Year 1 Laf = year 2 Kakko, year 2 Laf = year 3 Kakko, year 3 Laf = year 4 Kakko. The actual production comparisons just don't favor your argument. Again, it's simply calling a spade a spade.

 

Laf 29 pts, -7 -> 31, +2 -> 39, +10. That's progress. There's eye test progress there too, a lot of which was missing year 1.

[Pete]

4 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Again, it's easy to make massive progress off historically bad. Lafreniere has produced more than Kakko, and has been a year ahead of Kakko production wise. Year 1 Laf = year 2 Kakko, year 2 Laf = year 3 Kakko, year 3 Laf = year 4 Kakko. The actual production comparisons just don't favor your argument. Again, it's simply calling a spade a spade.

 

Laf 29 pts, -7 -> 31, +2 -> 39, +10. That's progress. There's eye test progress there too, a lot of which was missing year 1.

There's no eye test progress lol.

 

I will take a player who goes from 0 to 5 in 3 years over a player who goes from 4 to 5 any day of the weekend twice on Sunday.

 

You're proving the point I'm trying to make. Kakko has more there. Laf doesn't. This is probably going to be who he is, because it's been who he is for 3 years. 

 

And what you keep ignoring is that he has character and he's working hard and he's trying to get better, and Lafreniere isn't. His own organization is questioning his work ethic. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Pete

[Sharpshooter]

I'm not giving up on him yet, but it's just been a massive disappointment so far. Right now we'd be elated if he's a 60 or 70 point player who has some edge. That's not terrible, but it is when you're expecting a franchise altering player that's going to put up monster seasons. Right now, the player we're he becomes at this point, you can get most of the time in free agency.

[jsm7302]

Reality is, we hope he takes the bridge and makes significant progress during that time. He is still young enough to get better. After the bridge, I make my final decision with this kid. During the bridge, phone lines are open though; maybe a deal you can't pass up, comes through and everyone is happy.

[BrooksBurner]

39 minutes ago, Pete said:

There's no eye test progress lol.

 

I will take a player who goes from 0 to 5 in 3 years over a player who goes from 4 to 5 any day of the weekend twice on Sunday.

 

You're proving the point I'm trying to make. Kakko has more there. Laf doesn't. This is probably going to be who he is, because it's been who he is for 3 years. 

 

And what you keep ignoring is that he has character and he's working hard and he's trying to get better, and Lafreniere isn't. His own organization is questioning his work ethic. 

 

There is eye test progress. It's just not enough in the most visible ones (his skating, strength on skates), and he deserves significant criticism on that, but the criticism has conflated into inaccurately describing the other parts of his game. He has improved as a playmaker. He can make passes that Kakko hasn't (can't?). He has a better knack than Kakko for going to where he needs to go in the OZ without the puck. His OZ IQ is better. His vision is better. His hand eye is excellent. He's better in the greasy areas of the ice. These aren't the "sexy" traits, but they are absolutely there.

 

Kakko has his own traits that are better than Lafreniere. They are more visible traits like possessing the puck better and being stronger on his skates. It's way easier to see Kakko circling the zone with the puck on his stick, or using his size to shield it to maintain control, and say "he looks so good", but his production is what it is because he's missing a lot of the stuff that Lafreniere has. He doesn't know what to do next, and I don't think he gets himself into position to score very well when he doesn't have the puck. These are IQ related IMO and that's a bit worrisome because it may never "click". Physical improvement only matters if your brain can keep up.

 

The truth is, you'd probably have a legit 1/2OA quality star if you could combine the two players right now. I think Lafreniere's issues are more easily remediated than Kakko's moving forward though.

Edited July 14, 2023 by BrooksBurner

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

There is eye test progress. It's just not enough in the most visible ones (his skating, strength on skates), and he deserves significant criticism on that, but the criticism has conflated into inaccurately describing the other parts of his game. He has improved as a playmaker. He can make passes that Kakko hasn't (can't?). He has a better knack than Kakko for going to where he needs to go in the OZ without the puck. His OZ IQ is better. His vision is better. His hand eye is excellent. He's better in the greasy areas of the ice. These aren't the "sexy" traits, but they are absolutely there.

 

Kakko has his own traits that are better than Lafreniere. They are more visible traits like possessing the puck better and being stronger on his skates. It's way easier to see Kakko circling the zone with the puck on his stick, or using his size to shield it to maintain control, and say "he looks so good", but his production is what it is because he's missing a lot of the stuff that Lafreniere has. He doesn't know what to do next, and I don't think he gets himself into position to score very well when he doesn't have the puck. These are IQ related IMO and that's a bit worrisome because it may never "click". Physical improvement only matters if your brain can keep up.

 

The truth is, you'd probably have a legit 1/2OA quality star if you could combine the two players right now. I think Lafreniere's issues are more easily remediated than Kakko's moving forward though.

You've outdone yourself because everything you said in this post is wrong lol.

 

But I do think it's cute that all the Laferniere fanboys are now turning on Kakko for being better.

[Br4d]

8 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

There is eye test progress. It's just not enough in the most visible ones (his skating, strength on skates), and he deserves significant criticism on that, but the criticism has conflated into inaccurately describing the other parts of his game. He has improved as a playmaker. He can make passes that Kakko hasn't (can't?). He has a better knack than Kakko for going to where he needs to go in the OZ without the puck. His OZ IQ is better. His vision is better. His hand eye is excellent. He's better in the greasy areas of the ice. These aren't the "sexy" traits, but they are absolutely there.

 

Kakko has his own traits that are better than Lafreniere. They are more visible traits like possessing the puck better and being stronger on his skates. It's way easier to see Kakko circling the zone with the puck on his stick, or using his size to shield it to maintain control, and say "he looks so good", but his production is what it is because he's missing a lot of the stuff that Lafreniere has. He doesn't know what to do next, and I don't think he gets himself into position to score very well when he doesn't have the puck. These are IQ related IMO and that's a bit worrisome because it may never "click". Physical improvement only matters if your brain can keep up.

 

The truth is, you'd probably have a legit 1/2OA quality star if you could combine the two players right now. I think Lafreniere's issues are more easily remediated than Kakko's moving forward though.

 

Lafreniere is much better in the OZ than Kakko is at this point.  Kakko has an edge in transition.

 

The real problem with Lafreniere right now is that the Rangers see a different archetype for him that the one he developed as a younger player.  He was always a playmaker who then moved in and cleaned up the trash in front of the net in Juniors and international play.  That's not the role the Rangers see for him, primarily because they already have several playmakers ahead of him on the ice (Fox, Panarin, Zibanejad) and one guy who makes his living managing loose pucks around the net (Kreider).

 

GG wanted a checker who made plays from the corner.  There's just very little evidence that Lafreniere is good in that kind of role.  I don't care if you're a high draft pick.  If the team decides to change your role and your game everything else goes up in the air with that move.

[Keirik]

4 hours ago, Pete said:

A measure of progress is comparing a player from year 1 to now. Why are we comparing Lafreniere to Kakko last year?

 

Kakko is a visibly better player now than rookie Kakko. Lafreniere is pretty much the same guy that we saw in year 1.

 

Kakko has made more progress. Anyone watching both players sees that. Kakko is also a much better player than Lafreniere, despite not playing that many more games. 

 

 

 

We? Im not. Im going on your post. If it’s a reply to another then fine, but I’m not bringing up Kakko. 
 

as for being the “better player.” That’s all fine and great. He looks better. That holds very little meaning however. Kakko hasn’t had a roadblock of LWers in his path for years yet he still barely has been able to seize that and or put up more points. They’re also the aspect that Kakko was considered 1/1a in his draft and NHL ready. 
 

  I don’t want to use Kakko as part of this conversation. I can only go on what others are saying. 

[BrooksBurner]

6 minutes ago, Pete said:

You've outdone yourself because everything you said in this post is wrong lol.

 

But I do think it's cute that all the Laferniere fanboys are now turning on Kakko for being better.

 

I'm a fan boy of neither. If current circumstances were different, I would be on board with trading either one to make a more concerted effort to go for it the next 2-3 years. Fan boys don't think that way. They don't adjust based on new information. Like you with Panarin.

[Pete]

34 minutes ago, Keirik said:

We? Im not. Im going on your post. If it’s a reply to another then fine, but I’m not bringing up Kakko.

In your post you compared last year Lafreniere to last year Kakko, in a conversation about progress. Comparing the 2 players in that context is irrelevant, Kakko has improved more than Laf has. Not really debatable.

 

Quote

 

as for being the “better player.” That’s all fine and great. He looks better. That holds very little meaning however. Kakko hasn’t had a roadblock of LWers in his path for years yet he still barely has been able to seize that and or put up more points. They’re also the aspect that Kakko was considered 1/1a in his draft and NHL ready.

Bolded #1, it actually holds a lot of meaning. Bolded #2, untrue. Hughes was always the number one pick.

 

 

[Pete]

36 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I'm a fan boy of neither. If current circumstances were different, I would be on board with trading either one to make a more concerted effort to go for it the next 2-3 years. Fan boys don't think that way. They don't adjust based on new information. Like you with Panarin.

 

When the "new information" is a 7 game sample size where the entire team underperformed, then no we don't recalibrate expectations based on that.

 

Now, 3 years of doing dick, being called out by your own org as not working hard enough, etc...That's data you can use to reset.

 

Try having a conversation about other players without bringing Panarin into it, though. That will be a new skillset for you to develop.