Mercogliano Rangers Expected to Sign Lafreniere to 2-year Bridge With $2.5–2.75m AAV

[Br4d]

37 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I'm a fan boy of neither. If current circumstances were different, I would be on board with trading either one to make a more concerted effort to go for it the next 2-3 years. Fan boys don't think that way. They don't adjust based on new information. Like you with Panarin.

 

The reality is that if either of these guys was traded I'd be instantly disinterested in them.  I'm interested in Rangers and not much else in the hockey world at this point.  I went out of my way to watch Gretzky after the merger but I have literally no interest in McDavid.

 

I'd be fine with trading either of them if it clearly improved the team.  I just think the cap situation makes that unlikely over the near term.

[BrooksBurner]

34 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

Lafreniere is much better in the OZ than Kakko is at this point.  Kakko has an edge in transition.

 

The real problem with Lafreniere right now is that the Rangers see a different archetype for him that the one he developed as a younger player.  He was always a playmaker who then moved in and cleaned up the trash in front of the net in Juniors and international play.  That's not the role the Rangers see for him, primarily because they already have several playmakers ahead of him on the ice (Fox, Panarin, Zibanejad) and one guy who makes his living managing loose pucks around the net (Kreider).

 

GG wanted a checker who made plays from the corner.  There's just very little evidence that Lafreniere is good in that kind of role.  I don't care if you're a high draft pick.  If the team decides to change your role and your game everything else goes up in the air with that move.

 

Right, and this is why the concept of trading him was a thing. It was always with the idea of maximizing the chances of succeeding with the current core by getting someone who fits better, rather than waiting for a space to open to allow Laf to truly play the game he knows. That ship has sailed, and rightfully so, because it turns out that Laf being forced into the wrong role is not why the current core hasn't gotten it done. The current core is why the current core hasn't gotten it done, and doubling down on that at this stage is fool's gold. If they do surprise and catch lightning in a bottle with Lavi, great, but don't do anything else that has major ramifications on the future by chasing it.

 

The funny thing is, Laf even in the wrong role has objectively produced better than Kakko when comparing the same year of their respective careers, and Kakko has had way more opportunity and open space at his position.

[BrooksBurner]

3 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

The reality is that if either of these guys was traded I'd be instantly disinterested in them.  I'm interested in Rangers and not much else in the hockey world at this point.  I went out of my way to watch Gretzky after the merger but I have literally no interest in McDavid.

 

I'd be fine with trading either of them if it clearly improved the team.  I just think the cap situation makes that unlikely over the near term.

 

Same. A young player, pref 25 or younger, who is already kind of what you'd hope Laf or Kakko could be. Clayton Keller has been mentioned as a good example of that.

[BrooksBurner]

6 minutes ago, Pete said:

 

When the "new information" is a 7 game sample size where the entire team underperformed, then no we don't recalibrate expectations based on that.

 

Now, 3 years of doing dick, being called out by your own org as not working hard enough, etc...That's data you can use to reset.

 

Try having a conversation about other players without bringing Panarin into it, though. That will be a new skillset for you to develop.

 

The sample size is larger than that.

 

My mentioning of Panarin wasn't even actually a comment about Panarin. Nobody else would have taken it so hard. Thanks for proving my point though.

[Pete]

40 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

The sample size is larger than that.

 

My mentioning of Panarin wasn't even actually a comment about Panarin. Nobody else would have taken it so hard. Thanks for proving my point though.

LMAO took it hard? You're a funny guy.

[Keirik]

56 minutes ago, Pete said:

In your post you compared last year Lafreniere to last year Kakko, in a conversation about progress. Comparing the 2 players in that context is irrelevant, Kakko has improved more than Laf has. Not really debatable.

 

Bolded #1, it actually holds a lot of meaning. Bolded #2, untrue. Hughes was always the number one pick.

 

 

Stop. It was non stop said Kakko was the more NHL ready player from the draft. Not many were ever picking Kakko first but it was constantly said that the Rangers are basically getting a 1st overall pick caliber player as well.

As for eye test and looks. I’m sorry, if it ends up with similar results then it holds much less meaning than you are making it out to be. It’s a results laden league, not a looks one. 
 

 

and my post was a rebuttal to your post. How do I rebut your post without bringing up things you said in your post? Kakko year 4 had 1 more point than Laf in year 3. That also is not debatable. 

 

[RangersIn7]

4 minutes ago, Keirik said:

Stop. It was non stop said Kakko was the more NHL ready player from the draft. Not many were ever picking Kakko first but it was constantly said that the Rangers are basically getting a 1st overall pick caliber player as well.

As for eye test and looks. I’m sorry, if it ends up with similar results then it holds much less meaning than you are making it out to be. It’s a results laden league, not a looks one. 
 

 

and my post was a rebuttal to your post. How do I rebut your post without bringing up things you said in your post? Kakko year 4 had 1 more point than Laf in year 3. That also is not debatable. 

 

Obviously none of us really like where Laf is at this point, but it’s nowhere near disastrous or anything like that.

And we are probably overemphasizing the eye test portion of him a bit too much. 
 

That said, it’s exceedingly difficult to set aside the fact that these 2 were drafted where they were drafted. That’s something that has to be factored in to any evaluation.

Its like when people bring up the 2017 draft with Lias and Chytil, and they say, well, if we drafted them in reversed positions, no one would care. But we didn’t. So you can’t ignore it.

 

As for actual production, and I think this is important, they’re playing as 3rd line guys. All 3 of them. And their production is that of 3rd line guys. 
As for forcing themselves into the top-6 with their play, I gotta honestly say, I’m not sure that was going to happen under GG. Clearly he was a guy very much set in his ways, so while I can’t outright refute that assertion, I don’t know how real that possibility actually was. And even if it did, would he have kept them there???

 

But all of that is immaterial now.

 

Laf needs to do what he needs to on his end. Hopefully he’s spending the time now doing what he needs to.

I didn’t see the article from The Athletic, so I don’t know the specifics of what was said. Were they speaking about his work this off-season in present time, or what he’d done previously?

Also, we don’t know what’s going on with him now in the month since that article is published.

Surely he’s heard the talk. Hopefully he takes it to heart and gets a little pissed about it and does what he needs to. 

[Pete]

22 minutes ago, Keirik said:

Stop. It was non stop said Kakko was the more NHL ready player from the draft. Not many were ever picking Kakko first but it was constantly said that the Rangers are basically getting a 1st overall pick caliber player as well.

As for eye test and looks. I’m sorry, if it ends up with similar results then it holds much less meaning than you are making it out to be. It’s a results laden league, not a looks one. 
 

 

and my post was a rebuttal to your post. How do I rebut your post without bringing up things you said in your post? Kakko year 4 had 1 more point than Laf in year 3. That also is not debatable. 

 

Agree to disagree.

[jsm7302]

Kakkos effort and progress will eventually show on the score sheet with increased ice time, PP time. Laf's work ethic is questioned by the org.

 

The eye test and reputation show Kakko is most likely to be more successful here. If Laf came in with his head down and showed a bit more care, I think this debate would hold more water. His talent cannot make up for his shortfalls.

 

But hopeful that both will produce more than last year and continue to move forward. I just want to see the Stanley Cup on Broadway.

 

Sign the deal Munchkin and make em pay you in two years.

[Br4d]

16 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

As for forcing themselves into the top-6 with their play, I gotta honestly say, I’m not sure that was going to happen under GG. Clearly he was a guy very much set in his ways, so while I can’t outright refute that assertion, I don’t know how real that possibility actually was. And even if it did, would he have kept them there???

 

 

It's almost nonsensical to try to make the case that there's anything Lafreniere or Chytil could have done to force their way into the top 6 prior to last season.  They were both blocked by long-term professional players and one of those players (Kreider) had his best season ever in 2021-22 and not by a little bit, by a longshot.

 

Kakko obviously had the opportunity several times to become the RW1 and did not grab the job and run with it.

 

Last season the proposition of the kids getting 2nd line opportunities increased slightly as both Kreider and Trocheck were put on parity with the 5v5 time the kids line got, alongside a RW that changed over time in the first two-thirds of the season.  Then Tarasenko and Kane were imported and the status quo from earlier seasons re-emerged with all the kids back on the 3rd line.

 

In normal circumstances both Lafreniere and especially Kakko (4th season in the books) would have conclusively proven or disproved the notion that they were good enough to be top 6 players by now.  However those circumstances do not normally include a team on the cusp of contention as they walked in the door and unwilling to give them an open opportunity to drive the show.

[RangersIn7]

11 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

It's almost nonsensical to try to make the case that there's anything Lafreniere or Chytil could have done to force their way into the top 6 prior to last season.  They were both blocked by long-term professional players and one of those players (Kreider) had his best season ever in 2021-22 and not by a little bit, by a longshot.

 

Kakko obviously had the opportunity several times to become the RW1 and did not grab the job and run with it.

 

Last season the proposition of the kids getting 2nd line opportunities increased slightly as both Kreider and Trocheck were put on parity with the 5v5 time the kids line got, alongside a RW that changed over time in the first two-thirds of the season.  Then Tarasenko and Kane were imported and the status quo from earlier seasons re-emerged with all the kids back on the 3rd line.

 

In normal circumstances both Lafreniere and especially Kakko (4th season in the books) would have conclusively proven or disproved the notion that they were good enough to be top 6 players by now.  However those circumstances do not normally include a team on the cusp of contention as they walked in the door and unwilling to give them an open opportunity to drive the show.

Yeah it’s a variety of factors.

But I have to question whether Laf has done everything he could’ve done to achieve more at this point. 

 

But again… at this point it’s immaterial. He can do some things to improve. That’s clear.

What else is clear is that he hasn’t exactly wowed anyone very much either.

 

Its perplexing. 

There’s a need for change in a wide range of things. And I’m inclined to say that needs to start with him and those factors under his control. 

 

 

[Pete]

27 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

It's almost nonsensical to try to make the case that there's anything Lafreniere or Chytil could have done to force their way into the top 6 prior to last season.  They were both blocked by long-term professional players and one of those players (Kreider) had his best season ever in 2021-22 and not by a little bit, by a longshot.

 

Kakko obviously had the opportunity several times to become the RW1 and did not grab the job and run with it.

 

Last season the proposition of the kids getting 2nd line opportunities increased slightly as both Kreider and Trocheck were put on parity with the 5v5 time the kids line got, alongside a RW that changed over time in the first two-thirds of the season.  Then Tarasenko and Kane were imported and the status quo from earlier seasons re-emerged with all the kids back on the 3rd line.

 

In normal circumstances both Lafreniere and especially Kakko (4th season in the books) would have conclusively proven or disproved the notion that they were good enough to be top 6 players by now.  However those circumstances do not normally include a team on the cusp of contention as they walked in the door and unwilling to give them an open opportunity to drive the show.

I think we need to pause the revisionist history that Kakko didn't take the RW job and run with it. His analytics with Zib and Kreider were great last year, but GG split them up. Same the year before on Panarin's wing. We've heard that Panarin didn't love playing with Kakko, but there's no real evidence that was the case.

 

That said, as I already said, Fox jumped 3 spaces on the depth chart, including over ADA's career year. When you're good, you're good.

[Br4d]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

I think we need to pause the revisionist history that Kakko didn't take the RW job and run with it. His analytics with Zib and Kreider were great last year, but GG split them up. Same the year before on Panarin's wing. We've heard that Panarin didn't love playing with Kakko, but there's no real evidence that was the case.

 

That said, as I already said, Fox jumped 3 spaces on the depth chart, including over ADA's career year. When you're good, you're good.

 

The numbers say that Kakko did not take the RW1 job and run with it in 21-22 and 22-23.

 

Put Lafreniere on a line with 2 productive vets for any significant time over the last two years and his numbers would be better than Kakko who actually got those opportunities and only slightly out-produced him last year.

 

Lafreniere had 19 5v5 goals in 21-22.  Not very many NHL players get that type of production in a season.  It's not special by any means but it is a lot of 5v5 goals.

[BrooksBurner]

7 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Yeah it’s a variety of factors.

But I have to question whether Laf has done everything he could’ve done to achieve more at this point. 

 

But again… at this point it’s immaterial. He can do some things to improve. That’s clear.

What else is clear is that he hasn’t exactly wowed anyone very much either.

 

Its perplexing. 

There’s a need for change in a wide range of things. And I’m inclined to say that needs to start with him and those factors under his control. 

 

 

 

It's not a question. He hasn't. His skating should be much better by now and it isn't. His body should be more filled out (cue the "it is, with doughnuts!" jokes) and it isn't. We've all been frustrated with it to varying levels by the invisible stretches and general lack of dominance. The frustration has led to too many erroneous claims though.

[BrooksBurner]

6 minutes ago, Pete said:

I think we need to pause the revisionist history that Kakko didn't take the RW job and run with it. His analytics with Zib and Kreider were great last year, but GG split them up. Same the year before on Panarin's wing. We've heard that Panarin didn't love playing with Kakko, but there's no real evidence that was the case.

 

That said, as I already said, Fox jumped 3 spaces on the depth chart, including over ADA's career year. When you're good, you're good.

 

Imagine comparing leapfrogging ADA to leapfrogging a 50 goal scorer and a $12M 100 pt getter (at the time).

 

[RangersIn7]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

I think we need to pause the revisionist history that Kakko didn't take the RW job and run with it. His analytics with Zib and Kreider were great last year, but GG split them up. Same the year before on Panarin's wing. We've heard that Panarin didn't love playing with Kakko, but there's no real evidence that was the case.

 

That said, as I already said, Fox jumped 3 spaces on the depth chart, including over ADA's career year. When you're good, you're good.

Yeah.

 

Inexplicable. He needed to stay there.

 

Earning minutes is one thing. But no one does that with guys drafted that high. They just run them out there. Unfortunately, that wasn’t really an option they were comfortable with.

And for what it’s worth, when Laf was up there, the 3 of them I thought looked good together as well. 
Laf looked good with Chytil and Blais in that small sample early in ‘21 too. 
 

Related to this, I hate the rule on these guys not being able to go to the A until they’re age 20.

Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

This needs to be amended. 
We don’t see guys drafted high go there because they can’t. And so many would benefit from it. Yet it isn’t an option.

They tear it up in Junior, so there’s no benefit going back, and they go the NHL and they’re overmatched and play significantly fewer minutes, and their used to playing tons. 
 

It sucks

[RangersIn7]

9 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

It's not a question. He hasn't. His skating should be much better by now and it isn't. His body should be more filled out (cue the "it is, with doughnuts!" jokes) and it isn't. We've all been frustrated with it to varying levels by the invisible stretches and general lack of dominance. The frustration has led to too many erroneous claims though.

Erroneous claims on both sides id say.

 

Like I said, you can’t set the draft status aside in any evaluation. But it also creates a blurred image. 
 
I’ve not been impressed with him either. And I see the same flaws you do.

But I also see a guy who has improved.

Im sorry, but I disagree with anyone who says otherwise, cause they are simply wrong. Who still has his best hockey in front of him. And who can correct and/or improve upon them. 
Yet in spite of those flaws, and the role he’s played, his production is in line with how he’s been used. 
Just inconsistent. Which is the calling card of most young and developing players.

 

And I do t think I’ve got TB here (true believerism), or that I’m whistling past the graveyard. 
 

If he’s actually a lazy and immature fuck, fine. Move his ass.

 

But if he grows up… we shall see. 
 

He’s still just a kid. 
 

 

[BrooksBurner]

14 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Erroneous claims on both sides id say.

 

 

I've seen plenty say he stinks outright because he hasn't lived up to 1OA, incapable of evaluating outside of the draft position. On the flip side, I don't think I've seen one person anywhere say he's met the 1OA expectations that were there for him. Have you seen otherwise?

 

14 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

 

If he’s actually a lazy and immature fuck, fine. Move his ass.

 

But if he grows up… we shall see. 
 

He’s still just a kid. 

 

 

I think we're going to find that out sooner rather than later. I think we'll see lazy is not the case. I'm not sure about immature, but that's a bit in the eye of the beholder. Some guys are "kids at heart" and goof around. Panarin does plenty of goofing off, high leg kicks, etc. He's earned the right to be outwardly carefree. Lafreniere dances and does chinstrap mustaches and it is interpreted as immaturity because of his status and lack of meeting 1OA expectations. That's how I and a lot of others interpreted it. I also think if he showed up putting up video game numbers, nobody would be saying immature. They'd say look at him dominating and having fun doing it.

Edited July 14, 2023 by BrooksBurner

[RangersIn7]

2 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I've seen plenty say he stinks outright because he hasn't lived up to 1OA, incapable of evaluating outside of the draft position. On the flip side, I don't think I've seen one person anywhere say he's met the 1OA expectations that were there for him. Have you seen otherwise?

 

 

 

I think we're going to find that out sooner rather than later. I think we'll see lazy is not the case. I'm not sure about immature, but that's a bit in the eye of the beholder. Some guys are "kids at heart" and goof around. Panarin does plenty of goofing off, high leg kicks, etc. He's earned the right to be outwardly carefree. Lafreniere dances and does chinstrap mustaches and it is interpreted as immaturity because of his status and lack of meeting 1OA expectations. That's how I and a lot of others interpreted it. I also think if he showed up putting up video game numbers, nobody would be saying immature. They'd say look at him dominating and having fun doing it.

I’d say half a point per game pace in the normal utilization from a player who produces at that rate thus far says he doesn’t stink. Disappointing for a 1 OVA?

Abso-fucking-lutely. 
Bad at hockey? No.

 

Immaturity pervades itself into many areas.

 

 

We will see.

Camp, preseason, and I would say the first 6 weeks of the season will tell a lot. 

 

 

 

[Pete]

28 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Yeah.

 

Inexplicable. He needed to stay there.

 

Earning minutes is one thing. But no one does that with guys drafted that high. They just run them out there. Unfortunately, that wasn’t really an option they were comfortable with.

And for what it’s worth, when Laf was up there, the 3 of them I thought looked good together as well. 
Laf looked good with Chytil and Blais in that small sample early in ‘21 too. 
 

Related to this, I hate the rule on these guys not being able to go to the A until they’re age 20.

Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

This needs to be amended. 
We don’t see guys drafted high go there because they can’t. And so many would benefit from it. Yet it isn’t an option.

They tear it up in Junior, so there’s no benefit going back, and they go the NHL and they’re overmatched and play significantly fewer minutes, and their used to playing tons. 
 

It sucks

Agree with a lot of this, but even so you look at number one picks thrown to the wolves on the top line facing the other team's best defenses.

 

Too many people here are looking at Laferniere being sheltered as stunting his development rather than allowing him to grow with less pressure to perform than any top pick in recent history 

[Br4d]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

Agree with a lot of this, but even so you look at number one picks thrown to the wolves on the top line facing the other team's best defenses.

 

Too many people here are looking at Laferniere being sheltered as stunting his development rather than allowing him to grow with less pressure to perform than any top pick in recent history 

 

With the pressure of playing on the 1st line comes the benefit of playing with the best players on the team.

 

Playing with Filip Chytil and Kaapo Kakko has not been the best opportunity the Rangers could have given Lafreniere.  Not by a long shot.  Two better Centers have been available each season Lafreniere has been with the Rangers and having a good veteran pivot is probably the most important thing for any young winger.

[RangersIn7]

7 minutes ago, Pete said:

Agree with a lot of this, but even so you look at number one picks thrown to the wolves on the top line facing the other team's best defenses.

 

Too many people here are looking at Laferniere being sheltered as stunting his development rather than allowing him to grow with less pressure to perform than any top pick in recent history 

Yeah. I see you’re point.

 

But in all respect, you’re missing something.

 

These guys are used to being fed minutes upon minutes. For years and years. 
Normally they walk into a situation that’s very similar.

While I won’t say that a guy in that spot hasn’t ever suffered a cut in minutes, what we are seeing with him isn’t a cut.

Its an amputation. 
 

It’s irrefutable that guys produce more when they play more. 
 

If expectations were that he was going to produce top-6 levels of points, while not getting top-6 minutes, plus no power play time, than I’ll have to say that those were ridiculous expectations.

Youre not likely to get that. 
 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by RangersIn7

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

With the pressure of playing on the 1st line comes the benefit of playing with the best players on the team.

 

Playing with Filip Chytil and Kaapo Kakko has not been the best opportunity the Rangers could have given Lafreniere.  Not by a long shot.  Two better Centers have been available each season Lafreniere has been with the Rangers and having a good veteran pivot is probably the most important thing for any young winger.

He didn't come into the league playing with them. He failed into it. 

[RangersIn7]

6 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

With the pressure of playing on the 1st line comes the benefit of playing with the best players on the team.

 

Playing with Filip Chytil and Kaapo Kakko has not been the best opportunity the Rangers could have given Lafreniere.  Not by a long shot.  Two better Centers have been available each season Lafreniere has been with the Rangers and having a good veteran pivot is probably the most important thing for any young winger.

Like having a running game is important for a young QB?

[RangersIn7]

Just now, Pete said:

He didn't come into the league playing with them. He failed into it. 

He didn’t though. 
 

He was never getting, nor likely to get, that ice time to begin with.

 

Not under Quinn. Nor GG.