Re-drafting the 2020 NHL Draft: Tim Stützle and Jake Sanderson Lead Do-over

[Pete]

And he'd still be pedestrian.

 

I'm sorry but PP time alone is not enough to boost confidence and move the needle significantly for any of those players. It'd be nice, they can get their cookies, etc., but it's not making them better players.

[The Dude]

9 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

Schneider’s metrics are terrible. He’s young and can improve, but he’s been treated as a piece the team needs to clutch onto only because of the occasional big body check.

 

Yuck.

 

Schneider is the future. Kid has it all. Don't care about the metrics.  The "it" factor is there more than it isn't. His offensive ability and puck carrying skills are very under valued. Nevermind the physical side and his decent skating. 

 

Total package. Must keep.

 

If people think Miller can be taught anything defensively or physically.    I don't understand why they don't think the same from Schneider. 

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Yuck.

 

Schneider is the future. Kid has it all. Don't care about the metrics.  The "it" factor is there more than it isn't. His offensive ability and puck carrying skills are very under valued. Nevermind the physical side and his decent skating. 

 

Total package. Must keep.

 

If people think Miller can be taught anything defensively or physically.    I don't understand why they don't think the same from Schneider. 

Schneider can play. Anyone who's watching him can see this. He needs to be coached.

 

The same people detracting him were the ones detracting Skjei... And then he goes to Carolina and everyone realizes how good he really is, and frankly better all around player than Trouba. 

 

I'm not worried about this kid, he's a keeper and I think the organization feels that way too. 

[RangersIn7]

22 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Yuck.

 

Schneider is the future. Kid has it all. Don't care about the metrics.  The "it" factor is there more than it isn't. His offensive ability and puck carrying skills are very under valued. Nevermind the physical side and his decent skating. 

 

Total package. Must keep.

 

If people think Miller can be taught anything defensively or physically.    I don't understand why they don't think the same from Schneider. 

Im a believer in metrics. And also the eye test.

 

Independent of all of that… Schneider is an NHL player. 
 

When he files a tax return, his occupation says 1 thing…

 

Hockey Player.

Edited July 26, 2023 by RangersIn7

[BrooksBurner]

17 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Yuck.

 

Schneider is the future. Kid has it all. Don't care about the metrics.  The "it" factor is there more than it isn't. His offensive ability and puck carrying skills are very under valued. Nevermind the physical side and his decent skating. 

 

Total package. Must keep.

 

If people think Miller can be taught anything defensively or physically.    I don't understand why they don't think the same from Schneider. 

I like Schneider. He’s got confidence, opportunistic physicality, and leadership qualities. Those are traits the team is lacking, so it’s easy to be attached to him. But his metrics stink and it turned out it wasn’t actually all Nemeth’s fault. I think the fan base has valued him as some

immovable piece, similarly to how Tampa valued Sergachev in the 3LD role years ago, except Schneider is not close to what Sergachev was.

[The Dude]

12 minutes ago, Pete said:

Schneider can play. Anyone who's watching him can see this. He needs to be coached.

 

The same people detracting him were the ones detracting Skjei... And then he goes to Carolina and everyone realizes how good he really is, and frankly better all around player than Trouba. 

 

I'm not worried about this kid, he's a keeper and I think the organization feels that way too. 

I'll admit.  I didn't like Skjei after he signed that contract.

 

His play fell big time and his initial seasons looked like a mirage. I wanted him gone too. I still don't think he's all that special. But at 5 mill. I guess he's he is paid accordingly.

 

Honestly was surprised they didn't think to continue trying him with Trouba (or am i thinking incorrectly that they were paired and hyped up as buds?), but like I said I was glad (at the time) that they moved him. 

 

But I agree.  Schneider is going to be solid. Rather play him over Trouba and I don't even hate Trouba.  Just think he offers more and needs the opportunity and has shown that he deserves that opportunity. 

 

 

[The Dude]

1 minute ago, BrooksBurner said:

I like Schneider. He’s got confidence, opportunistic physicality, and leadership qualities. Those are traits the team is lacking, so it’s easy to be attached to him. But his metrics stink and it turned out it wasn’t actually all Nemeth’s fault. I think the fan base has valued him as some

immovable piece, similarly to how Tampa valued Sergachev in the 3LD role years ago, except Schneider is not close to what Sergachev was.

It was Nemeth's, Brauns, Hajeks, Jones, Harpurs,and even Mikkolas faults. The kid has played with below average partners his entire career. Mikkola only stepped it up in the last 2 weeks or so of the season. Otherwise, his partners left a lot to be desired. 

 

He IS immovable.  He's Troubas replacement. Trouba could/should be out of here in 2 years. 

[BrooksBurner]

23 minutes ago, Pete said:

Schneider can play. Anyone who's watching him can see this. He needs to be coached.

 

The same people detracting him were the ones detracting Skjei... And then he goes to Carolina and everyone realizes how good he really is, and frankly better all around player than Trouba. 

 

I'm not worried about this kid, he's a keeper and I think the organization feels that way too. 

Nobody watches Carolina and says “wow look how good Brady Skjei is”. Lol. Carolina thought so much of him they went and signed Orlov to a big deal to push Skjei down to the 3rd pair.

[Pete]

16 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

I like Schneider. He’s got confidence, opportunistic physicality, and leadership qualities. Those are traits the team is lacking, so it’s easy to be attached to him. But his metrics stink and it turned out it wasn’t actually all Nemeth’s fault. I think the fan base has valued him as some

immovable piece, similarly to how Tampa valued Sergachev in the 3LD role years ago, except Schneider is not close to what Sergachev was.

Your problem is that you look at analytics and let that guide if you think a player is good or not, and valuable or not, but the game goes way beyond that specific set of metrics. You don't bother to take that extra step and consider outside factors into a player's metrics. 

 

Schneider has never been paired with a competent partner. The best he had was Mikkola, and he was suspect at best. 

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Nobody watches Carolina and says “wow look how good Brady Skjei is”. Lol. Carolina thought so much of him they went and signed Orlov to a big deal to push Skjei down to the 3rd pair.

Well, plenty of people do think he's really good. And you're not qualified to speak for everybody, so I don't give a shit that you think "nobody" watches him and thinks he's good.

 

That said, if you could speak for nobody, so can I... Nobody thinks Orlov is 2nd pair. 

 

https://leftwinglock.com/line-combinations/carolina-hurricanes/?team=carolina-hurricanes&strength=EV&gametype=GD

 

 

https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/teams/carolina-hurricanes/line-combinations

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

8 minutes ago, The Dude said:

It was Nemeth's, Brauns, Hajeks, Jones, Harpurs,and even Mikkolas faults. The kid has played with below average partners his entire career. Mikkola only stepped it up in the last 2 weeks or so of the season. Otherwise, his partners left a lot to be desired. 

 

He IS immovable.  He's Troubas replacement. Trouba could/should be out of here in 2 years. 

 

This is where we say good players make their teammates better. Especially ones we want to label immovable.

 

A lot of fans would have been good with re-signing Mikkola (I was on the fence).

[BrooksBurner]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

Your problem is that you look at analytics and let that guide if you think a player is good or not, and valuable or not, but the game goes way beyond that specific set of metrics. You don't bother to take that extra step and consider outside factors into a player's metrics. 

 

Schneider has never been paired with a competent partner. The best he had was Mikkola, and he was suspect at best. 

 

Show me the bridge you took to say I said metrics and analytics were everything when the post you quoted said this:

 

Quote

I like Schneider. He’s got confidence, opportunistic physicality, and leadership qualities. Those are traits the team is lacking

 

[BrooksBurner]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

Well, plenty of people do think he's really good. And you're not qualified to speak for everybody, so I don't give a shit that you think "nobody" watches him and thinks he's good.

 

That said, if you could speak for nobody, so can I... Nobody thinks Orlov is 2nd pair. 

 

 

 

I don't need anyone else to say it. Actions speak louder than words. Carolina has Slavin and an expiring Skjei contract after this year, and they gave Orlov $8M per for 2 years.

 

I don't know what you mean by Orlov isn't a 2nd pair. Not that it matters. Carolina didn't give out $8M to a defenseman to be anything less than 2nd pair.

 

[Pete]

32 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I don't need anyone else to say it. Actions speak louder than words. Carolina has Slavin and an expiring Skjei contract after this year, and they gave Orlov $8M per for 2 years.

 

I don't know what you mean by Orlov isn't a 2nd pair. Not that it matters. Carolina didn't give out $8M to a defenseman to be anything less than 2nd pair.

 

Sure they did, when they gave his dumpster diving partner next to nothing.

 

And maybe he is Skjei insurance but that doesn't change that Skjei has been stellar in Carolina.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Pete

[Pete]

48 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Show me the bridge you took to say I said metrics and analytics were everything when the post you quoted said this:

 

 

I didn't need a bridge. 95% of your posts are geared towards niche stats pulled specifically to carve your narrative, not because they paint a complete picture of the player.

 

You also just said those are qualities that endear him to fans, but his metrics determined that he's not valuable. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

11 minutes ago, Pete said:

Sure they did, when they gave his dumpster diving partner next to nothing.

 

And maybe he is Skjei insurance but that doesn't change that Skjei has been stellar in Carolina.

 

You're not making any sense. Carolina is basically showing Skjei the door. They could have extended him and had Slavin/Skjei in the top 4 for the next X years. Instead they gave Orlov big $. I'm not sure why you even compared Schneider with Skjei in the first place. They are nothing alike. It wasn't a good comparison, or analogy, or whatever you were doing.

 

7 minutes ago, Pete said:

I didn't need a bridge. 95% of your posts are geared towards niche stats pulled specifically to carve your narrative, not because they paint a complete picture of the player.

 

You also just said those are qualities that endear him to fans, but his metrics determined that he's not valuable. 

 

I said those were qualities the team is lacking. I think you have a reading comprehension problem at this point.

 

[Pete]

10 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

You're not making any sense. Carolina is basically showing Skjei the door. They could have extended him and had Slavin/Skjei in the top 4 for the next X years. Instead they gave Orlov big $. I'm not sure why you even compared Schneider with Skjei in the first place. They are nothing alike. It wasn't a good comparison, or analogy, or whatever you were doing.

 

 

I said those were qualities the team is lacking. I think you have a reading comprehension problem at this point.

 

Maybe, but it's not as big as your posting comprehension. 

 

Skjei is a quality player. He was underappreciated in New York because of "metrics" (related to carrying Trouba) The fact that Carolina is preparing for him to move on does not change the fact that he's the quality player. Signing Orlov doesn't change anything. They don't want to get burned the way they're getting burned with Pesce, who's another quality player that by your description is being "shown the door".

 

Schneider is a quality player... Despite his "metrics".

 

I think the bigger misunderstanding is that you really don't understand how the NHL works. It explains a lot of your posting. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

Maybe, but it's not as big as your posting comprehension. 

 

Skjei is a quality player. He was underappreciated in New York because of "metrics" (related to carrying Trouba) The fact that Carolina is preparing for him to move on does not change the fact that he's the quality player. Signing Orlov doesn't change anything. They don't want to get burned the way they're getting burned with Pesce, who's another quality player that by your description is being "shown the door".

 

Schneider is a quality player... Despite his "metrics".

 

I think the bigger misunderstanding is that you really don't understand how the NHL works. It explains a lot of your posting. 

 

I don't recall a metrics argument with Skjei. He went from 40 points as a rookie and people had aspirations of a top pairing 50+ point two way defenseman who had potential to pile up a lot more points after that rookie year. So did the Rangers, even after the 25 point sophomore season he had, and they gave him that big 2nd contract. They were wrong, because he remained a 25 point defenseman and they traded him.

 

I've read no such aspirations for Schneider. I mostly read about him projecting as a hard nosed, heart on his sleeve 2nd pairing guy. Valuable to a team, yeah. Immovable piece, no. I remember any trade proposal a year ago with his name in it was essentially a non-starter. I don't think that's the case anymore, but I also don't think the Rangers have any intention to trade him nor should they unless the return is good. In case you missed it, I said I like Schneider. I think he gets swallowed up in his own zone a lot and he obviously isn't good enough (yet) to stabilize whoever he's paired with, but he's a baby and he's got enough good qualities to want to see where it goes.

[RangersIn7]

2 hours ago, The Dude said:

I'll admit.  I didn't like Skjei after he signed that contract.

 

His play fell big time and his initial seasons looked like a mirage. I wanted him gone too. I still don't think he's all that special. But at 5 mill. I guess he's he is paid accordingly.

 

Honestly was surprised they didn't think to continue trying him with Trouba (or am i thinking incorrectly that they were paired and hyped up as buds?), but like I said I was glad (at the time) that they moved him. 

 

But I agree.  Schneider is going to be solid. Rather play him over Trouba and I don't even hate Trouba.  Just think he offers more and needs the opportunity and has shown that he deserves that opportunity. 

 

 

Yeah dude.
 

They paid Skjei as a 2nd pairing guy, then played him as a 1st pairing guy. And they did so after his rookie season, when he was a 3rd pairing guy. All while they sent out “The Letter” and pushed the reset button, and the roster got old and talent declined. 
And they bumped him from 17 minutes per night to 21 minutes per night. 
That’s why he looked like a mirage. Or terrible. Or overmatched.

 

And off that great rookie season, going into year 2, he had 87 games of NHL experience. Plus another 76 games in the A. 

Also… He took 4 full seasons to reach the NHL. And had a major “sophomore slump” off his all-rookie season.

 

He developed just fine. 
He’s a good quality top-4 NHL D, on a very good, perennially contending team. And his salary matches what he is. 

[The Dude]

7 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

This is where we say good players make their teammates better. Especially ones we want to label immovable.

 

A lot of fans would have been good with re-signing Mikkola (I was on the fence).

Mikkola finished real good. When he was moved up to play in place of Lindgren,  it sparked something in him. He really grew on me. But he started like shit. 

 

Somehow you can say Schneider needs to make his teammates better,  but Lafrenière needs special treatment and to be given the best linemates and unearned PP minutes, after being drafted as a generational talent... 

 

How's that work? 

[Pete]

6 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I don't recall a metrics argument with Skjei. He went from 40 points as a rookie and people had aspirations of a top pairing 50+ point two way defenseman who had potential to pile up a lot more points after that rookie year. So did the Rangers, even after the 25 point sophomore season he had, and they gave him that big 2nd contract. They were wrong, because he remained a 25 point defenseman and they traded him.

 

I've read no such aspirations for Schneider. I mostly read about him projecting as a hard nosed, heart on his sleeve 2nd pairing guy. Valuable to a team, yeah. Immovable piece, no. I remember any trade proposal a year ago with his name in it was essentially a non-starter. I don't think that's the case anymore, but I also don't think the Rangers have any intention to trade him nor should they unless the return is good. In case you missed it, I said I like Schneider. I think he gets swallowed up in his own zone a lot and he obviously isn't good enough (yet) to stabilize whoever he's paired with, but he's a baby and he's got enough good qualities to want to see where it goes.

OK, you don't recall a metrics argument, but there was one.

 

My point remains unchanged. 

[BrooksBurner]

3 hours ago, The Dude said:

Mikkola finished real good. When he was moved up to play in place of Lindgren,  it sparked something in him. He really grew on me. But he started like shit. 

 

Somehow you can say Schneider needs to make his teammates better,  but Lafrenière needs special treatment and to be given the best linemates and unearned PP minutes, after being drafted as a generational talent... 

 

How's that work? 

I didn’t say Lafreniere was immovable. That’s the main difference. Neither has shown enough to earn that kind of label.

 

I haven’t said any of that about Lafreniere. I don’t know who has, on this board anyway.

[The Dude]

48 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

I didn’t say Lafreniere was immovable. That’s the main difference. Neither has shown enough to earn that kind of label.

 

I haven’t said any of that about Lafreniere. I don’t know who has, on this board anyway.

I didn't say you said Lafrenière was immovable. I Saud you make excuses for his non expanded role due to his lack of PP time and lack of better linemates. 

 

You expect a kid that was drafted in the 20s if tge 1st round to play a few games in the A and then just come here and be the guy. You're saying he hasn't made his partners better. 

 

Meanwhile youll say that the generational talent needs to be spoonfed good linemates and top ice time in order for him to be effective.  THAT guy should make his linemates better. Not the late 1st round pick D man who was hurried through the system and played for a coach who couldn't nail down any defensive structure. 

 

The combination of what Schneider brings and what he will obviously eventually bring  makes him still an untouchable.

 

You already know I think Lafrenière is VERY movable.  You aren't as on board with that notion. But I'll agree that you would move him. It's just that while he's here, you'll make all the excuses in the world for him and his inability to be a difference maker on any line he's been on as an NHLer. 

 

I don't think your using a level playing field with your expectations, is what I'm getting at. 

 

 

[RangersIn7]

Schneider’s played all of 150 total NHL games at this point, and 175 total games as a pro. And he’s done that on a team that had no system, anywhere on the ice.

Kinda hard to learn how to play at the NHL level and play your best when you’re not really playing under any parameters other than “try to score without letting your opponent do so”, which was pretty much the full breadth of GG’s tactics and strategy. 
 

If his metrics aren’t good thus far, which they aren’t, I think it’s fair to say its mostly due to his limited experience and the overall lack of defensive structure. 
 

Schneider is a hockey player. 
Im not at all concerned with where he’s at. He’s been exclusively on the bottom pair and he’s not likely to move up higher. 
He’s only had 20+ minutes of ice-time in 8 games in his career thus far.

 

Hes totally fine and I’m interested to see how Lavy’s system impacts him.

[RangersIn7]

41 minutes ago, The Dude said:

I didn't say you said Lafrenière was immovable. I Saud you make excuses for his non expanded role due to his lack of PP time and lack of better linemates. 

 

You expect a kid that was drafted in the 20s if tge 1st round to play a few games in the A and then just come here and be the guy. You're saying he hasn't made his partners better. 

 

Meanwhile youll say that the generational talent needs to be spoonfed good linemates and top ice time in order for him to be effective.  THAT guy should make his linemates better. Not the late 1st round pick D man who was hurried through the system and played for a coach who couldn't nail down any defensive structure. 

 

The combination of what Schneider brings and what he will obviously eventually bring  makes him still an untouchable.

 

You already know I think Lafrenière is VERY movable.  You aren't as on board with that notion. But I'll agree that you would move him. It's just that while he's here, you'll make all the excuses in the world for him and his inability to be a difference maker on any line he's been on as an NHLer. 

 

I don't think your using a level playing field with your expectations, is what I'm getting at. 

 

 

I believe in a development curve and period, or whatever you want to call it. And typically, with any player, it takes 4-5 seasons and 300-400 games before that player gives you a clear idea what they are and you really know what you have.

But I’ll add that as you get into the latter half of that, the player has to be making a consistent and noticeable impact. 
 

LaFreniere is running out of time there. He needs to really take a step and start being impactful this season. Period.

 

I don’t know that it’s a make or break thing with him, but it’s not too far south of that.

Overall, He’s been “meh” thus far and hasn’t met expectations, even when you consider the factors involved. He should be showing some more. No one can deny that.