Can Blake Wheeler Be Traded?

[RangersIn7]

11 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

I'm pretty sure most of Othmann's points are from the PP. That's great for the future of the PP as Panarin leaves and/or Zib fades, but meaningless for the big club right now.

The encouraging thing is that he’s getting top-6 minutes, and getting PP time, and producing there, in his first 20-25 professional games, at age 20.

 
That’s really great.

 

So let’s not fuck with a good thing when we’ve got it.

 

 

[Pete]

Rangers fans: "Hey, this thing is going really well, let's make it harder and fuck with it because we're impatient and need the shiny new toy."

[Br4d]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

Rangers fans: "Hey, this thing is going really well, let's make it harder and fuck with it because we're impatient and need the shiny new toy."

That's not the deal at all.

 

The team is losing playing depth on a week over week basis at this point.  Something is likely to have to be done about that unless the Rangers see Chytil coming back sooner than we all expect.

 

Even then line 1 RW is again a bleeding problem.

[Pete]

15 minutes ago, Br4d said:

That's not the deal at all.

 

The team is losing playing depth on a week over week basis at this point.  Something is likely to have to be done about that unless the Rangers see Chytil coming back sooner than we all expect.

 

Even then line 1 RW is again a bleeding problem.

That doesn't mean you call up Othmann. 

 

Move up Vesey and/or Goodrow, call up Blidh, Edstrom, Belzile, Nash, Loosechicken, Henriksson for the 4th line before fucking up a player's development. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Pete

[RangersIn7]

13 minutes ago, Br4d said:

That's not the deal at all.

 

The team is losing playing depth on a week over week basis at this point.  Something is likely to have to be done about that unless the Rangers see Chytil coming back sooner than we all expect.

 

Even then line 1 RW is again a bleeding problem.

But they aren’t.

 

They are still winning. At a very good clip.

Just not at the unsustainable clip they were.

 

Jeez guys… they get loose vs a garbage Sharks team and win 6-5 and go sloppy vs a middling Sens team, though with some real elite players, in December, and lose… and suddenly we need Othmann to come up?

Cause he’s the savior?

Or is it just for a look?

Cause he’s getting 10 minutes. Maybe 12-13. 

 

Here’s the operative point on Othmann…

 

He’s a gifted kid with a potentially bright future… who right now needs to play significantly at the professional level.

In every situation. As much as he can.

That is not likely for him here on any meaningfully consistent basis.

 

He’s getting that where he is and it’s just starting to manifest into something good.

 

So, maybe let him keep doing that. 

[RangersIn7]

20 minutes ago, Pete said:

Rangers fans: "Hey, this thing is going really well, let's make it harder and fuck with it because we're impatient and need the shiny new toy."

That’s the aspect that people are missing IMO…

 

You brought in this new coaching staff.

Theyre doing well.

Players are clearly responding and buying in.

 And most importantly… the aspect you judge this but… performance and results… and they’re getting them.

 

The mix of guys in the room is good.

Coaches have a good read and handle on things.

And know what to do, and when and how to do it.

 

Why introduce this kid now?

And create a situation where they now need to try and fit this kid in, figure out where to do so, account for his needs and his development and his personality and all of that, when you don’t need to?

 

Why??

 

Also… why take this kid out of a spot where he’s getting 16-20 minute a night. He’s playing with your best players. He’s on your top PP, and he can focus on the offense, which is why they drafted him high in the first place…

And then ask him to do otherwise?

 

JUST LET HIM PLAY! 

[Br4d]

4 hours ago, Pete said:

That doesn't mean you call up Othmann. 

 

Move up Vesey and/or Goodrow, call up Blidh, Edstrom, Belzile, Nash, Loosechicken, Henriksson for the 4th line before fucking up a player's development. 

 

We don't know when Goodrow will be good to go again.  There are some injuries that a mouthguard is not good enough protection for.

[Pete]

6 hours ago, Br4d said:

 

We don't know when Goodrow will be good to go again.  There are some injuries that a mouthguard is not good enough protection for.

That doesn't change what I said. And they don't play again until Saturday. That's plenty of time to heal from a dental injury. He would come back with a cage and a fishbowl and is lower mandible wrapped in bubble wrap before he sat out a game. 

[The Dude]

13 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

If you think they’re going to do a panic call up because of one Tuesday night tilt in Ottawa, a week into December, then you’re the one missing the point.

 
The guys in charge know what they’re doing. 
Let them be in charge. 
It’s working right now. 
 

Also… you’re talking about the door being closed on him because people come back from injury… yet you also are talking about the fact that they are going to make adds at the deadline or before… and that there’s a need for that. Which you’re openly acknowledging and advocating for. 
So what… you’re saying bring him up for a couple of games now? Vs down the road a bit?

 

What’s his opportunity look like when they bring in what they should in a bit?

 

And why now fuck with things when they’re going well where they are and he’s doing the same where he is? 
 

 

There isn’t the kind of window for this kid this year. You’re already doing it for Cuylle. He’s your rookie who earned the spot. 
Roll with that.

Othmann gets here when he does and that is probably pretty soon. 

 

Dude… be patient.

Hes got 10 points in 7 games in the A.

Thats great.

Let him build on that where he CAN.

Which is there.

If it continues, cool. Do it. Pull the trigger.

The guys making that decision will know when to do it.

 

And people are hanging Kakko right now, off of 20 games right now.

 

 

 

You think in absolutes. 

 

Them needing a RW (or 2) isn't a new problem. This thought isn't because of one loss. This team is winning, yet we all see some holes. Holes that have been issues for years. 

 

This isn't a reactionary request from a loss. This is a reactionary request due to there being 2 giant gaping holes on RW for 4+ years now. 

 

I don't really get why you think your opinion is the same as management's. Why do insist that they aren't thinking about it? It has to be on their radar and is probably a decision they are weighing daily. 

 

Why mess with the fact that they have 1 or 2 legitimate RWs on the roster right now? Seriously? They need a RW or 2. That's extremely easy to see. This team can get better. There's absolutely no reason to not try the options from within. There is a need. Sitting tight just because they are winning,  isn't the thing to do. Not with Blake Wheeler and Jimmy Vesey being your only legit RWs on the roster right now.  

 

Seeing what Othmann or Berard can add,  could eliminate the need for a trade. We don't know a thing about Kakkos situation. The Rangers likely aren't going to be optimistic about a triumphant return when or if he comes back. 

 

They need a RW or 2. This isn't debatable. Where they come up with one is. I think trying to inject a hot hand with tons of future potential is the best move for right now. Do it now when it won't kill the team to try it. They can afford some growing pains with how good they are in the standings.

 

IMO, doing it now with little pressure on him is a better time to do such a thing. Going into next year waiting for Kakko to get his shit together,  and the likelihood of adding a FA to the ranks clouds the objective of getting this kid on the roster. 

 

Your approach is to leave him down there.  Fine. But don't pretend that they aren't going to be looking for RWs, because they are doing good. With or without Kakko,  they need someone.

 

Your route brings in a guy via trade, without giving prospects a look. My route is see what the kids can bring and evaluate if they mix with the team and actually help. Right now a window for that look is open. It isn't open later in the season when they would rather bring in a vet AND they once again give a long leash to Kakko. 

 

Nows the opportunity to weigh Kakkos worth vs another young players. As well as see how much of an impact a prospect can make. There's zero harm in it. 

 

People have been fed up with Kakko for atleast 2 years. This isn't new. For me it is. I've always thought he'd break out. He looked ready last year and in camp. Right now he's just Enver Lisin. It's looking like he'll never get it and it's not from lack of trying.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pete]

I don't think it's fair to say that people have been upset with Kakko for 2 years. He was finally healthy last year and had a solid season. A lot of people predicted a breakout for him. A poor 20 games to start the season doesn't change that, because we see nobody has succeeded as top line right wing, and his next stop was playing with Bonino and a rook.

 

Sure, a lot of it is on him and his decision making, but he's not exactly getting any help out there. 

 

Right now, everyone from Vince to Valley has said that the Rangers have learned their lesson about rushing prospects and are not going to make the same mistake with Othmann. That makes a call up after 20 AHL games where the entire body of work has been pretty mediocre pretty unlikely. 

[RangersIn7]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

You think in absolutes. 

 

Them needing a RW (or 2) isn't a new problem. This thought isn't because of one loss. This team is winning, yet we all see some holes. Holes that have been issues for years. 

 

This isn't a reactionary request from a loss. This is a reactionary request due to there being 2 giant gaping holes on RW for 4+ years now. 

 

I don't really get why you think your opinion is the same as management's. Why do insist that they aren't thinking about it? It has to be on their radar and is probably a decision they are weighing daily. 

 

Why mess with the fact that they have 1 or 2 legitimate RWs on the roster right now? Seriously? They need a RW or 2. That's extremely easy to see. This team can get better. There's absolutely no reason to not try the options from within. There is a need. Sitting tight just because they are winning,  isn't the thing to do. Not with Blake Wheeler and Jimmy Vesey being your only legit RWs on the roster right now.  

 

Seeing what Othmann or Berard can add,  could eliminate the need for a trade. We don't know a thing about Kakkos situation. The Rangers likely aren't going to be optimistic about a triumphant return when or if he comes back. 

 

They need a RW or 2. This isn't debatable. Where they come up with one is. I think trying to inject a hot hand with tons of future potential is the best move for right now. Do it now when it won't kill the team to try it. They can afford some growing pains with how good they are in the standings.

 

IMO, doing it now with little pressure on him is a better time to do such a thing. Going into next year waiting for Kakko to get his shit together,  and the likelihood of adding a FA to the ranks clouds the objective of getting this kid on the roster. 

 

Your approach is to leave him down there.  Fine. But don't pretend that they aren't going to be looking for RWs, because they are doing good. With or without Kakko,  they need someone.

 

Your route brings in a guy via trade, without giving prospects a look. My route is see what the kids can bring and evaluate if they mix with the team and actually help. Right now a window for that look is open. It isn't open later in the season when they would rather bring in a vet AND they once again give a long leash to Kakko. 

 

Nows the opportunity to weigh Kakkos worth vs another young players. As well as see how much of an impact a prospect can make. There's zero harm in it. 

 

People have been fed up with Kakko for atleast 2 years. This isn't new. For me it is. I've always thought he'd break out. He looked ready last year and in camp. Right now he's just Enver Lisin. It's looking like he'll never get it and it's not from lack of trying.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

What’s absolute about my thinking???

The kid is gonna get a look at some point.

And if he keeps it up, he’ll get that look sooner than later. And I’m totally cool with that.

 
Just trying to keep perspective. He’s 20. 25 games as a pro.

His hot streak is below 10 games.

He’s compiling numbers largely due to PP time.

His development, and therefore his need to continue to get the minutes and opportunities he’s currently getting in Hartford, is important. 
You can’t guarantee him that here. 
 

Also… is he even playing RW at ES down there?

I believe Vince said on his Podcast last week he has not. And that’s the void he’d need to fill. 
 

 

If we are talking about him playing in a bottom-6 spot and minutes, ok. That’s fine. It’s still experience for him. And he probably would begin there. But that isn’t where they need the help. 
 

As for organizational thinking and what they’ve spoken about internally, I don’t know and can only speculate.

None of us do.

 Though I do think it’s pretty clear and it’s been said by people close to the organization, that they feel like they’ve rushed guys and they are committed to getting away from that. 

And I’ve said they’re absolutely looking for and in need of RW help.

 

[The Dude]

You think in absolutes in that you think a call up is in the same sense as rushing Kakko and Lafrenière. 

 

Those guys were rushed by not sending them down AT ALL. It was obvious the players lacked the confidence at the NHL level. They second guessed a lot.  They didn't play with intensity.  That's when you take a step back and you send them down.

 

The Rangers didn't want that mud in their eye, of their prized 1 &2 OA not being capable of being difference makers. They couldn't swallow that pill. 

 

There's a difference between how they handed 24/13 and what I'm suggesting.  If Othmann isn't ready after the call up... Send him back. You have to check. Especially when you have the buffer of a great start and openings on the roster. 

 

Good point about the RW though. Though I don't think it matters to him. 

 

I've said it a hundred times now. I don't believe this kid needs to start on a top line, nor does he require PP time. He'd be effective in other ways. I'm not relying on him to score goals. I'm counting on him being a player with a pulse and an ability to play any style needed.  

 

The Rangers DO need a 3rd line RW at this time and likely moving forward. I don't know why you think they don't or atleast act like they don't. There are 2 gaping holes for RW.  They have a guy that will go back to line 1 and be competent enough to get by. J Brodz ain't that guy. Wheeler will go back to line one. Brodz back to Hartford. Berard or Othmann called up as a spark plug for the 3rd line. Nothing wrong with that. Give them a taste. Go from there. 

 

That's worlds different than what they did with 24/13. There's no pressure.  There's no committing to it as the end all be all. It's potential lightning in a bottle. 

 

Look no further than Cuylle and his call up last year. Did that ruin anything at all? You have it drilled in your head that the prospects must play a certain amount of games in the AHL to season them, just because they failed to do so with 24/13. 

 

They're not all the same. They're cut from a different jib.  Their paths and starts to their careers are already very different.  So stop acting like it's the same situation. Just because the Rangers said they learned their lesson from their past prospects, doesn't mean this equates to that failure.  If they don't work out,  there's nothing wrong with sending them back. It's not detrimental. They'll go back and work harder. 

 

Now is a really good time to call one of them up. I'm not demanding it. Just making an observation. 

[Sod16]

23 hours ago, Pete said:

Don't worry, he's currently skating with Michael Sauer, so it really should be any year now that he's okay. 

That one still hurts.  +20 as a rookie D-Man.  Toronto persistantly posted clips of his career ending injury on the videotron to rev up the crowd.  Classy.

[RangersIn7]

4 hours ago, The Dude said:

You think in absolutes in that you think a call up is in the same sense as rushing Kakko and Lafrenière. 

 

Those guys were rushed by not sending them down AT ALL. It was obvious the players lacked the confidence at the NHL level. They second guessed a lot.  They didn't play with intensity.  That's when you take a step back and you send them down.

 

The Rangers didn't want that mud in their eye, of their prized 1 &2 OA not being capable of being difference makers. They couldn't swallow that pill. 

 

There's a difference between how they handed 24/13 and what I'm suggesting.  If Othmann isn't ready after the call up... Send him back. You have to check. Especially when you have the buffer of a great start and openings on the roster. 

 

Good point about the RW though. Though I don't think it matters to him. 

 

I've said it a hundred times now. I don't believe this kid needs to start on a top line, nor does he require PP time. He'd be effective in other ways. I'm not relying on him to score goals. I'm counting on him being a player with a pulse and an ability to play any style needed.  

 

The Rangers DO need a 3rd line RW at this time and likely moving forward. I don't know why you think they don't or atleast act like they don't. There are 2 gaping holes for RW.  They have a guy that will go back to line 1 and be competent enough to get by. J Brodz ain't that guy. Wheeler will go back to line one. Brodz back to Hartford. Berard or Othmann called up as a spark plug for the 3rd line. Nothing wrong with that. Give them a taste. Go from there. 

 

That's worlds different than what they did with 24/13. There's no pressure.  There's no committing to it as the end all be all. It's potential lightning in a bottle. 

 

Look no further than Cuylle and his call up last year. Did that ruin anything at all? You have it drilled in your head that the prospects must play a certain amount of games in the AHL to season them, just because they failed to do so with 24/13. 

 

They're not all the same. They're cut from a different jib.  Their paths and starts to their careers are already very different.  So stop acting like it's the same situation. Just because the Rangers said they learned their lesson from their past prospects, doesn't mean this equates to that failure.  If they don't work out,  there's nothing wrong with sending them back. It's not detrimental. They'll go back and work harder. 

 

Now is a really good time to call one of them up. I'm not demanding it. Just making an observation. 

Those are all good points

And I get where you are coming from and why.

 

But I don’t at all view Laf and Kakko and their situations and circumstances the same as Othmann. Not at all. 
And I’ve drawn no real parallels there… not direct ones. Cause they’re really aren’t any.

Theyre not the same. Never says they were.

Only thing I really said was that they don’t want to go fast on guys. They feel like it’s been a bad habit organizationally, how they’ve handled guys, or mishandled. And if they have a guy in the A that’s doing well, they probably want to leave him alone for a bit. 
What THEY want to do.

I do agree with that. 
They did so when he didn’t make the team.

He could’ve. 
And I’ve considered that too.

 

I think he’s for sure an NHL’er.

I think so soon. 
Possibly this year.

Certainly next.

And I agree that he could fit in several places.

Its possible too he could be at least reasonably impactful too.

 

But I think he’s needs to stay because he’s playing the role there he’s ideally going to play here eventually, even if he starts below.

And also, while I think he could possibly be helpful there, that isn’t where you need help. 
The bottom-6 isn’t an issue now. Even at RW.

And to stick him higher, probably too big of an ask right now.

 

So why not let him keep going where he’s at when he can get what he needs… cause in his case, that’s most likely the best thing for him.

 

Thats all.

 

Cheers

[Albatrosss]

Jezuz fuck!!! You guys gotta stop writing novels with every post. Who da fuck has time to read the whole thing?

[BrooksBurner]

15 minutes ago, Albatrosss said:

Jezuz fuck!!! You guys gotta stop writing novels with every post. Who da fuck has time to read the whole thing?

Everyone is talking more about Kakko while he’s hurt, compared to when he was playing. That speaks volumes.

[Albatrosss]

35 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Everyone is talking more about Kakko while he’s hurt, compared to when he was playing. That speaks volumes.

Enough with volumes. Speak paragraphs 

[Pete]

6 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

Everyone is talking more about Kakko while he’s hurt, compared to when he was playing. That speaks volumes.

It does. It shows how much they miss him defensively, and how bad Wheeler is. 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Pete

[Ozzy]

I like the kid!

• Why would we trade away a guy who is first of all...A RIGHT WING??  Which we have NONE....ZERO...ZILCH...NADA...NIL...ZIPPO!!
• He's responsible defensively
• HE'S CHEAP
• He's 22!!!
• He has talent...lots of it!  We've seen it!  ...albeit in glimpses....but it's there!

 

He's also injured and would have very little trade value....That's a wasted asset in my opinion.

 

So, he's not scoring this season yet...big fucking deal.  Revert back to "he's 22".  Say what you what about this kid, we better get used to him....he ain't going nowhere!

[Sharpshooter]

Yeah, great point. No coincidence their dip in defense occurs right around the time he was no longer in the lineup. With him it's almost a confidence thing it seems like. 

[Albatrosss]

On 12/8/2023 at 8:44 AM, Ozzy said:

I like the kid!

• Why would we trade away a guy who is first of all...A RIGHT WING??  Which we have NONE....ZERO...ZILCH...NADA...NIL...ZIPPO!!
• He's responsible defensively
• HE'S CHEAP
• He's 22!!!
• He has talent...lots of it!  We've seen it!  ...albeit in glimpses....but it's there!

 

He's also injured and would have very little trade value....That's a wasted asset in my opinion.

 

So, he's not scoring this season yet...big fucking deal.  Revert back to "he's 22".  Say what you what about this kid, we better get used to him....he ain't going nowhere!

Few of us said the same thing about Laf in the offseason, yet many wanted him traded cause he didn’t live up to his draft position. 
 

but 3 points in 20 games, up and down the lineup? Idk if I could show any optimism. It’s not like he’s a rookie trying to find his game. This is his 5th season. 

[RangersIn7]

2 minutes ago, Albatrosss said:

Few of us said the same thing about Laf in the offseason, yet many wanted him traded cause he didn’t live up to his draft position. 
 

but 3 points in 20 games, up and down the lineup? Idk if I could show any optimism. It’s not like he’s a rookie trying to find his game. This is his 5th season. 

Yeah.

 But he’s progressed so much since he started.

Theres a lot of punctuation and fits and starts that aren’t his fault.

He needed the minors and didn’t get it.

The rest of his game is very good.

Hes shown offensive ability and production relative to his opportunity before.

 

He just got off to a really slow start in one area. Albeit the most important one. Offense.

That is often times the last thing to come. At least consistently.

 Based on his utilization and deployment, his other areas developed first. 
His deployment made that course of development something that should have been expected. Especially being a kid that’s Finnish. 
That’s how they generally are.

 

 

He’s not Teemu Selanne. He’s never going to be. Wasn’t billed as such.

 

I still think he eventually ends up as a guy who is 25ish goals. Anywhere from 50-70 points depending on deployment.
But who is also super complete as a player and does everything really well and can play big minutes in a top role, do so vs top players and is very effective. 
 

Don’t write him off.

[Albatrosss]

16 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Yeah.

 But he’s progressed so much since he started.

Theres a lot of punctuation and fits and starts that aren’t his fault.

He needed the minors and didn’t get it.

The rest of his game is very good.

Hes shown offensive ability and production relative to his opportunity before.

 

He just got off to a really slow start in one area. Albeit the most important one. Offense.

That is often times the last thing to come. At least consistently.

 Based on his utilization and deployment, his other areas developed first. 
His deployment made that course of development something that should have been expected. Especially being a kid that’s Finnish. 
That’s how they generally are.

 

 

He’s not Teemu Selanne. He’s never going to be. Wasn’t billed as such.

 

I still think he eventually ends up as a guy who is 25ish goals. Anywhere from 50-70 points depending on deployment.
But who is also super complete as a player and does everything really well and can play big minutes in a top role, do so vs top players and is very effective. 
 

Don’t write him off.

If he’s invisible again tonight, im packing his suitcase.

 

its really a shame to have such a glorious name and not be a superstar 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Albatrosss said:

Few of us said the same thing about Laf in the offseason, yet many wanted him traded cause he didn’t live up to his draft position. 
 

but 3 points in 20 games, up and down the lineup? Idk if I could show any optimism. It’s not like he’s a rookie trying to find his game. This is his 5th season. 

I don't think it's that he didn't live up to his draft position, at least my opinion was that there was no point in keeping him on the third line when he was being blocked by superior offensive players and is no good defensively in a third line role under Laviolette... Along with the potential return being better than what you would get from KK right now.

 

Frankly, the Rangers should be keeping KK because he's going to wind up being a cheap third line wing, and it's not like they don't need that. 

[Br4d]

There's a good argument for keeping Kakko as a 3rd liner.  The question is how does that work on the cap? 

 

His reps are going to want a one year deal in '24-'25 and then if he has a good 3rd line performance of 40 points they're going to want full value on that and probably a premium because he legitimately might break out in the first couple of years of the new deal. 

 

The Rangers could finesse that by letting him go to arbitration instead of immediately re-upping him.  That might facilitate a trade at that point.

 

The problem is that at the moment Kakko has the skills and production of a 3rd liner but he still has the expectations of a high draft pick, not to mention the injury will shoehorn him into a deal that he doesn't want next season.

 

Kakko was serious when he said he wanted more power play time this season.  That's his expectation and moving forward it will be the expectation.  It's where the money is.