Phil Posted June 2 Author Share Posted June 2 1 minute ago, Pete said: I don't think it's as big as others. Centers need wingers. His weren't nearly good enough. And before we say "Great players make others better," I agree. He certainly made Kreider better. But RW is nowhere to be found and LW is a non-participant for too much of the game. Pens looked for wingers for Sid forever, came down to chemistry with Dupuis and Kunitz. Oilers looked for wingers for McD, CHI is looking for wingers for Bedard. No one can do it alone. If Mika could he'd be making $14M not $8M. Like I said, I would take calls on everyone, MZ included, but likelihood is he's here next year. So you have to fix him. Right, but look at the formula in all those scenarios. Looking for wingers for a stud C is the sequence. Not the other way around. If you are looking for Cs for your wingers, you're doing it backwards. There's an abundance of wingers available every year. The opposite is true of centers because when teams find stud Cs they lock them down like the Rangers did with Zib and Trocheck. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 1 minute ago, Phil said: He got more time because Mika sucked. They leaned on him in a career year — one I think you'd agree isn't very likely to repeat. He and Laf are the blue print in the sense that how they play is how you have to play to win. He got more time because he earned more time. But if you want to make the war in Ukraine, Palestine, climate change and Lizzo being obese on Mika, then have at it. There's not much point in continuing this particular convo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 (edited) 1 minute ago, Phil said: Right, but look at the formula in all those scenarios. Looking for wingers for a stud C is the sequence. Not the other way around. If you are looking for Cs for your wingers, you're doing it backwards. There's an abundance of wingers available every year. The opposite is true of centers because when teams find stud Cs they lock them down like the Rangers did with Zib and Trocheck. And that's what I'm saying, so I think I'm missing your point. Where did I suggest looking for a center for wingers? Edited June 2 by Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 2 Author Share Posted June 2 Correct. He earned it. He stepped up. The other guy didn't and hasn't in any year. Hence the lack of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieNextel305 Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 3 minutes ago, Pete said: I don't think it's as big as others. Centers need wingers. His weren't nearly good enough. And before we say "Great players make others better," I agree. He certainly made Kreider better. But RW is nowhere to be found and LW is a non-participant for too much of the game. Pens looked for wingers for Sid forever, came down to chemistry with Dupuis and Kunitz. Oilers looked for wingers for McD, CHI is looking for wingers for Bedard. No one can do it alone. If Mika could he'd be making $14M not $8M. Like I said, I would take calls on everyone, MZ included, but likelihood is he's here next year. So you have to fix him. I just feel like it’s excuse after excuse. I’m not necessarily disagreeing, because I do agree his wingers stink at driving plays too. But I have serious doubts about this guy being able to put it all together himself and being a 1C on a Cup winning team. Someone in the locker room needs to go. There needs to be a reset. Whether it ends up being they find a deal for him? Who knows? It’ll take work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 2 Author Share Posted June 2 2 minutes ago, Pete said: And that's what I'm saying, so I think I'm missing your point. Where did I suggest looking for a center for wingers? You didn't but it's the logical inference of what you're saying here and have been most of the year re: Kreider. It's why we keep coming back to this argument/fight. If wingers aren't good enough, I agree, find better ones. But if your center isn't good enough, to me, you're dealing with critical infrastructure failure. The game goes through the middle of the ice (if you want to win). Can they find better wingers to lift Zibanejad's game? It's possible, but it's backwards, and the fact we're talking about solutions to elevate our 1C's game perfectly illustrates the problem — their 1C is the problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 2 Author Share Posted June 2 To me, you can "fix" Zibanejad one of two ways: 1. Replace him. I'd prefer this. Even if means a step back in the interim, which it almost certainly does. Just like it did with Brassard when they traded him. Short-term loss for long-term gain. 2. Drag him into the fight. Find a 1RW bull who will literally drag him out of his malaise. I wanted Alex Tuch all year. That's a pipe dream. What about Tom Wilson or Ryan Hartman? They need someone in this mold. They need a prick who can counter balance his demure nature. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 3 minutes ago, RichieNextel305 said: I just feel like it’s excuse after excuse. I’m not necessarily disagreeing, because I do agree his wingers stink at driving plays too. But I have serious doubts about this guy being able to put it all together himself and being a 1C on a Cup winning team. Someone in the locker room needs to go. There needs to be a reset. Whether it ends up being they find a deal for him? Who knows? It’ll take work. I said it last night, but there is no bigger issue than Trouba, dollar for dollar. Mika and Panarin play to (or exceed) their paychecks in the regular season at least. Trouba makes $8M and was on a 25pt pace. Couple that with him being a massive negative in so many ways, he simply has to go. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Lothbrok Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 (edited) Not an alternative narrative by any means, but perhaps a mitigating factor: we ran into a fucking buzzsaw. It happens. It happened to Carolina this year when they DID add Guentzel, when everyone was picking THEM to win the Cup. Florida was every bit as good as we heard they were before the series started. The issue is their roster is full of gamers, and ours ain't. But if Boston had come out the other side of the prior series, we'd probably be watching Dallas/Edmonton for who our opponent was gonna be. If Dallas prevails, that means winning a Cup this year would've had to go through THREE teams with over 50 wins and 110 points. That's absurdly and abnormally difficult. Not one first or second round upset. I do believe that the Big 3 can't take this team to the promised land, but inasmuch as we're stuck with them, they can at least be complimentary players moving forward. There's cause for optimism. Lafreniere took a step forward. Miller and Schneider are still young. Gustafson was a journeyman given way too much responsibility. Our deadline adds were complete non-factors. We have impending infusions of young, talented players. Some players are going to get better just by getting a little more experience. The other ones, well, we just have to mitigate the damage from them and hope the rest of the lineup carries. Edit to add: I think we all agree that the ECFs against Florida was the Stanley Cup. I think we all would've believed we could take Edmonton or Dallas if we would get through the East's Big Bad. We couldn't. It happens. They're good. Really fucking good. So was Carolina and we got through them. A lot to be proud of. And also, isn't there some statistic about teams that win the President's Trophy winning the Cup next year or some shit? Edited June 2 by Ranger Lothbrok 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br4d Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 3 minutes ago, RichieNextel305 said: I just feel like it’s excuse after excuse. I’m not necessarily disagreeing, because I do agree his wingers stink at driving plays too. But I have serious doubts about this guy being able to put it all together himself and being a 1C on a Cup winning team. Someone in the locker room needs to go. There needs to be a reset. Whether it ends up being they find a deal for him? Who knows? It’ll take work. What needs to go is the basic idea that the Rangers are a finesse team. Finesse teams don't win Stanley Cups. Of the current core most are finesse players who have become better and better at that play style as they have gained experience with each other. Panarin, Fox, Zibanejad and Kreider have gotten very comfortable playing with each other. 2 of those guys have to go to break up the happy, happy, fun, fun paradigm that the current Rangers live and die by. Somebody needs to be playing effective smashmouth hockey in the playoffs and I don't think we want that to be Laf for many different reasons. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieNextel305 Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 1 minute ago, Pete said: I said it last night, but there is no bigger issue than Trouba, dollar for dollar. Mika and Panarin play to (or exceed) their paychecks in the regular season at least. Trouba makes $8M and was on a 25pt pace. Couple that with him being a massive negative in so many ways, he simply has to go. They can’t run it back with him. They just can’t. He is such a liability. What would a buyout look like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooksBurner Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 I’m going to make an assumption that Zibanejad is simply not tradeable because of his contract. That makes trading Panarin the dictator of how I would want to see this offseason play out. Trade Panarin Route The options are endless with that kind of cap flexibility. If they can trade him, it’s probably the only big trade I make. They can sign a few players to fortify the blueline and depth. The signal to the team is they are going to start playing a different way. A harder way that showcases accountability, and what better way to start doing that than to dump your 120 point finesse player? Laffy plays on the left of Zib. Kreider on the left of Trocheck. Splitting up KZ is part two on accountability. Fuck your bro-ship! Don’t Trade Panarin Route If he’s not traded, we are stuck with him and looking at a two year burn down before turning the page. Start reconfiguring the roster in the meantime. No more fool’s gold scenarios where they can win with him as the guy. Three years ago everyone said we had two Cup windows. The first with Zib/Panarin/Kreider/Fox/Igor and co. The second with Lafreniere/Kakko(I know, lol)/Fox/Igor. The first window is gone. They didn’t win a Cup, which fucking sucks, but it doesn’t change the fact the first window is done. This was the best they had. You have to pivot towards making the second window as open as you can instead of investing anymore into the first one. They may have even more work to do setting that window up since Kakko doesn’t look part of it. Anyone who doesn’t fit the Lafreniere/Fox timeline is eligible. In this scenario, I would almost certainly trade Kreider because of his age and trade value. It’s probably an opportunity to have a Brassard for Zibanejad moment. I don’t care about Trouba in this scenario because he has negative trade value and forcing him out is a win now move. This is the most critical offseason in a very long time for the Rangers. They could absolutely ruin the second window and Lafreniere’s prime if they aren’t careful. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 4 minutes ago, Phil said: You didn't but it's the logical inference of what you're saying here and have been most of the year re: Kreider. It's why we keep coming back to this argument/fight. If wingers aren't good enough, I agree, find better ones. But if your center isn't good enough, to me, you're dealing with critical infrastructure failure. The game goes through the middle of the ice (if you want to win). Can they find better wingers to lift Zibanejad's game? It's possible, but it's backwards, and the fact we're talking about solutions to elevate our 1C's game perfectly illustrates the problem — their 1C is the problem. Oh now I get it, you're not listening to what I'm saying, you're coloring it with your Mika world view. I think Mika is good enough. Just not good enough to constantly be playing 4 on 5 with no RW or 3 on 5 when Krieder is useless. If every argument you make is going to be some kind of Mika bash like this 14 minutes ago, Phil said: Correct. He earned it. He stepped up. The other guy didn't and hasn't in any year. Hence the lack of faith. Then I'm not interested in that. We all know how you feel. No point in continuing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 2 Author Share Posted June 2 We're talking past each other because we fundamentally disagree with the statement you just made. You think Mika is good enough. I don't. It's an impasse, I agree. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 1 hour ago, Dem said: Miller is just not a good defensemen. There's no development between the ears to compliment his God given ability, unfortunately. I think it's time to move on personally. His size and skating makes me think Duguay's idea about shifting him to wing isn't a bad one. He has a few brainfarts every night, like inexplicably messing with a puck Igor looked to have on the own goal in this series. Every error in an ECF is gonna get magnified, but Trouba makes enough weak blind clearing passes that the pinching D intercept, and Miller has picked up that habit playing with him. Can picture opposing coaches looking at video saying "Dump it in the corner, and one of these 2 is gonna throw it up the boards; be waiting." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 9 minutes ago, Phil said: We're talking past each other because we fundamentally disagree with the statement you just made. You think Mika is good enough. I don't. It's an impasse, I agree. I reserve the right so see him with wingers who can transport the puck, a luxury Trocheck enjoys and it's what helped him to a career year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sod16 Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 It's nice to lose fair and square and not spend the summer agonizing over what could have been. With the cap and NTC situation, it's going to be difficult maintaining as good of a team as we have, let alone improving. Cap hell really hits a year from now. We are average in terms of size and muscle, average in terms of quickness and speed, and way above average in finesse. That translates to a team that is average at even strength and excellent on the PP. Our opportunities for a "hockey trade" to change this are limited. I see Miller as the most likely candidate. It was fitting that the back breaking goal last night occured off his failure to use his body to win a loose puck. I'm tired of his failure to win pucks and failure to do something productive with one when he does get ahold of it. He is flat lining. He has value in the market. They have to try to dump Trouba's contract either now or next off season. They can't trade him for a player making significant money. They are cap compelled to dump the whole contract if they can for essentially no return. Panarin is coming off a career season. His playoff was not as good as was hoped but contained very significant high points. He's a Russian for whom NY is a big deal. He took less to play here. He's not waiving his NTC. Fo-getta-bout-it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br4d Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 14 minutes ago, Phil said: We're talking past each other because we fundamentally disagree with the statement you just made. You think Mika is good enough. I don't. It's an impasse, I agree. Mika is not only not good enough right now but he is aging into his 30's and unlikely not to be worse next season than he was this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br4d Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 If the Rangers could get Brady Tkachuk for Fox they should grab that deal and run with it. That would change the character of the Ranger's locker room immediately. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karan Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 2 hours ago, Flynn said: Trying not to be over reactionary in response to a really disappointing seasons end. But I’m struggling to find the silver lining. the NHL has a clear hierarchy 1. Teams built to win Championships 2. Teams positioned to take the next step to Cup contender status. 3. Good- winning teams who just don’t have the horses 4. Franchises that’s want to make money (or not lose money) more than they want to win 5. Rebuilders. Some are perpetually here, but there is an attempt. 6. The shit. See- former Arizona. the Rangers are firmly in tier 3. A good to really good team that doesn’t have the pieces to take the last couple steps. Unfortunately the roster as it is currently structured- lousy with NMC’s- making the necessary changes are going to be damn near impossible to pull off. We need to hope Drury is a magician. Ripping on Panarin, Mika, Trouba, Kreider (the best contract of that group by a magnitude of 100) seems fruitless at this point. These guys are the built in furniture that comes with the house- we are stuck with this core. We need to hope Laf continues to grow, Trocheck to assume more and more of a leadership role. (Trouba being the C is a joke). The young D needs to take a giant leap. it’s just disappointing because you have an all world goalie and the moves you can make are bottom 6 and 6th D type moves. This core has great dudes, fantastic statistical performers- but not guys who are built to win an ECF or SC. I’ve seen this movie before with Hank I didn’t like that ending. This one has the same script. Fuck everything. So you're saying we're basically the Toronto Maple Leafs, just with a better goalie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 8 minutes ago, Br4d said: Mika is not only not good enough right now but he is aging into his 30's and unlikely not to be worse next season than he was this season. You said that about Panarin last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br4d Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Pete said: You said that about Panarin last season. I didn't say that. You're carrying your argument with somebody else over. If I had said that what I would have said is that the Ranger's star players are mostly in the range where one or more are likely to be in decline this season. Brooks was right that the odds favored a Panarin stepdown over what actually happened. However those were just the odds on one player and instead we got stepdowns from Mika and Trouba. Edit: our over 30's next season are Panarin, Mika, Kreider, Trouba, Quick, Tro, Vesey and Goodrow. Odds are very good a couple of those guys stepddown, some for the second time in two years. Edited June 2 by Br4d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keirik Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 36 minutes ago, RichieNextel305 said: They can’t run it back with him. They just can’t. He is such a liability. What would a buyout look like? If they bought him out this offseason, you are looking at a 4m cap hit for 24/25 and 25/26, then a 2m cap hit for 26/27 and 27/28. https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout-calculator/jacob-trouba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 32 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said: I’m going to make an assumption that Zibanejad is simply not tradeable because of his contract. That makes trading Panarin the dictator of how I would want to see this offseason play out. Trade Panarin Route The options are endless with that kind of cap flexibility. If they can trade him, it’s probably the only big trade I make. They can sign a few players to fortify the blueline and depth. The signal to the team is they are going to start playing a different way. A harder way that showcases accountability, and what better way to start doing that than to dump your 120 point finesse player? Laffy plays on the left of Zib. Kreider on the left of Trocheck. Splitting up KZ is part two on accountability. Fuck your bro-ship! Don’t Trade Panarin Route If he’s not traded, we are stuck with him and looking at a two year burn down before turning the page. Start reconfiguring the roster in the meantime. No more fool’s gold scenarios where they can win with him as the guy. Three years ago everyone said we had two Cup windows. The first with Zib/Panarin/Kreider/Fox/Igor and co. The second with Lafreniere/Kakko(I know, lol)/Fox/Igor. The first window is gone. They didn’t win a Cup, which fucking sucks, but it doesn’t change the fact the first window is done. This was the best they had. You have to pivot towards making the second window as open as you can instead of investing anymore into the first one. They may have even more work to do setting that window up since Kakko doesn’t look part of it. Anyone who doesn’t fit the Lafreniere/Fox timeline is eligible. In this scenario, I would almost certainly trade Kreider because of his age and trade value. It’s probably an opportunity to have a Brassard for Zibanejad moment. I don’t care about Trouba in this scenario because he has negative trade value and forcing him out is a win now move. This is the most critical offseason in a very long time for the Rangers. They could absolutely ruin the second window and Lafreniere’s prime if they aren’t careful. The biggest reason I believe they run it back is that the guys everyone wants to be traded are only going to be traded with retention or an equally bad deal coming back and the Rangers just can't afford that, or buyouts. So I think what happens is they take 2 more cracks at it with what they have, by then Lafreniere is 24 and probably much more ready to carry a team than he is now. The only tradeable contracts are Trouba with retention and Kreider where you probably don't need to retain and the package would be sweet. I guess my point is they can tear it down now and be in cap hell for a good amount of time or just ship those two out and try and retool before letting players go via UFA (Panarin). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieNextel305 Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 Just now, Keirik said: If they bought him out this offseason, you are looking at a 4m cap hit for 24/25 and 25/26, then a 2m cap hit for 26/27 and 27/28. https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout-calculator/jacob-trouba So really, just the $2M hit after the fact while saving 50% the next two seasons? I might be okay with that. Especially with the cap going up. You can’t have this guy here any longer. He is just terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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