Staple There May Be Interest in Trouba If Rangers Retain Some Salary

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

I don't think Detroit will be on Trouba's no trade list.  Detroit can have Chytil too if they want him.

Trouba will probably go to Detroit, being from Michigan. Definitely need to get Seider back though. 

 

I wouldn't trade Chytil there though. We're going to need him for the McDavid package we're going to put together. 

[RJWantsTheCup]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

Trouba will probably go to Detroit, being from Michigan. Definitely need to get Seider back though. 

 

I wouldn't trade Chytil there though. We're going to need him for the McDavid package we're going to put together. 

No way Detroit trades Seider, but you know that.

Imagine if we would've traded back and were able to draft Seider how different the team would be.

[jsm7302]

7 minutes ago, Pete said:

Trouba will probably go to Detroit, being from Michigan. Definitely need to get Seider back though. 

 

I wouldn't trade Chytil there though. We're going to need him for the McDavid package we're going to put together. 

Fox, Chytil, 1st Rounder, and Gabe Perrault for McDusty......

[Drew a Penalty]

4 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

Imagine if we would've traded back and were able to draft Seider how different the team would be.

 

There was a collective "Huh?" at Rogers when he Detroit "reached" on Seider at the time. It would've been even crazier for the Rangers to have traded back. We can only operate with hindsight now.

[siddious]

23 minutes ago, Drew a Penalty said:

 

There was a collective "Huh?" at Rogers when he Detroit "reached" on Seider at the time. It would've been even crazier for the Rangers to have traded back. We can only operate with hindsight now.

We don’t have the greatest track record when it comes to going off the board so yea…

[Drew a Penalty]

5 minutes ago, siddious said:

We don’t have the greatest track record when it comes to going off the board so yea…

 

And imagine doing it by trading back from second overall to get a guy who was expected to go in the 15-25 range. This board would've imploded at the time.

[BrooksBurner]

Kakko probably would have been a 30 goal 80 point player if he were drafted by Detroit, and Seider would have been getting shuffled between Hartford and and 6/7D.

[Phil]

4 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Kakko probably would have been a 30 goal 80 point player if he were drafted by Detroit, and Seider would have been getting shuffled between Hartford and and 6/7D.

 

LOL, wat? I honestly think Kakko would be Kakko regardless of where he was taken or by which team. He is who he is.

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

LOL, wat? I honestly think Kakko would be Kakko regardless of where he was taken or by which team. He is who he is.

Nah, you don't get it.

 

Rangers fans think the players are all bad, management is bad, everything they do is bad, they always fuck up, and everything sucks, in general. 

 

Oh, except Lafreniere. He's good.

 

But everything else bad. Bad, bad, bad. 

[BrooksBurner]

2 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

LOL, wat? I honestly think Kakko would be Kakko regardless of where he was taken or by which team. He is who he is.

 

Maybe, but we now know for certain that David Quinn is a horrific NHL head coach pretty much across the board. I think he coached all natural instincts out of Kakko, and fucked up his confidence beyond all repair. But hey, he groomed Stanley Cup champion Brett Howden.

[Phil]

15 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Maybe, but we now know for certain that David Quinn is a horrific NHL head coach pretty much across the board. I think he coached all natural instincts out of Kakko, and fucked up his confidence beyond all repair. But hey, he groomed Stanley Cup champion Brett Howden.

 

Yeah, not following you at all here. And if this is true, it speaks volumes of Kakko's ability to be a professional. One coach, for like a year and a half? was able to completely derail his career? And this is your second overall pick who you are expecting a highly productive 15–20 years out of?

[Phil]

20 minutes ago, Pete said:

Nah, you don't get it.

 

Rangers fans think the players are all bad, management is bad, everything they do is bad, they always fuck up, and everything sucks, in general. 

 

Oh, except Lafreniere. He's good.

 

But everything else bad. Bad, bad, bad. 

 

I mean, in this case, the players are super good — it's management and coaching who ruined everything. I don't get this kind of thinking at all. It completely absolves an entire party from the responsibility of who they are, and does so based on completely unfalsifiable premises.

[Pete]

17 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

I mean, in this case, the players are super good — it's management and coaching who ruined everything. I don't get this kind of thinking at all. It completely absolves an entire party from the responsibility of who they are, and does so based on completely unfalsifiable premises.

No no you don't get it...Kakko would be Raantanen and Lafreniere MacKinnon if they were drafted by another team. Automatically. 

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

 

Yeah, not following you at all here. And if this is true, it speaks volumes of Kakko's ability to be a professional. One coach, for like a year and a half? was able to completely derail his career? And this is your second overall pick who you are expecting a highly productive 15–20 years out of?

 

I mean Kakko was getting abused in every which direction as a bust after his first year and second year. He comes across as a very timid guy who would have a tough time with that sort of thing. I'm just saying I think things could have been different if he went to another team with a different coach and different (less) external pressure instead. Throw into the mix that a "can't miss" Lafreniere was also horrific his first year under David Quinn. Yeah he didn't seem ready physically, but he looked objectively bad, not just "a bit behind". Now consider the only thing San Jose has to be excited about after 2 years of David Quinn are guys who haven't even played a game for the Sharks or been drafted yet. A coach advertised as a "developmental coach", canned before he can ruin Will Smith and Celebrini.

 

The difference between Kakko and Lafreniere, however, is that Lafreniere has never lacked confidence in himself or broke mentally. He loves the pressure. That's a personality thing that can't be taught. He's persevered through pretty quickly.

[RJWantsTheCup]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

No no you don't get it...Kakko would be Raantanen and Lafreniere MacKinnon if they were drafted by another team. Automatically. 

Wouldn't they be Kurri & Gretzky?

[BrooksBurner]

5 minutes ago, Pete said:

No no you don't get it...Kakko would be Raantanen and Lafreniere MacKinnon if they were drafted by another team. Automatically. 

 

What's your stance here? The coach who got them to start their careers didn't matter?

[Phil]

17 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I mean Kakko was getting abused in every which direction as a bust after his first year and second year. He comes across as a very timid guy who would have a tough time with that sort of thing. I'm just saying I think things could have been different if he went to another team with a different coach and different (less) external pressure instead. Throw into the mix that a "can't miss" Lafreniere was also horrific his first year under David Quinn. Yeah he didn't seem ready physically, but he looked objectively bad, not just "a bit behind". Now consider the only thing San Jose has to be excited about after 2 years of David Quinn are guys who haven't even played a game for the Sharks or been drafted yet. A coach advertised as a "developmental coach", canned before he can ruin Will Smith and Celebrini.

 

The difference between Kakko and Lafreniere, however, is that Lafreniere has never lacked confidence in himself or broke mentally. He loves the pressure. That's a personality thing that can't be taught. He's persevered through pretty quickly.

 

You misunderstand — I'm with you on your assessment of Quinn. I'm not with you on this unfalsifiable approach to grading these players in a scenario we literally can't test against. Pragmatically speaking, we need to operate under the assumption that this is the player he is, and that some difference in draft status isn't likely changing this very much. I think you are giving entirely too much credit to the ability of one man to destroy the career of a player based on a very short amount of time, and you're also missing the very real consequence of this actually being true: it speaks volumes of Kakko (or any other players) complete lack of mental fortitude.

 

But if we're just gonna keep doing the unfalsifiable thing, then I'll counter with this: Kakko broke because he's mentally weak and he'd have broken because he's mentally weak no matter where he went. Remember that face he made the first time he watched Reaves beat the brakes off a guy? He was never remotely prepared for what professional hockey in North America meant and he'd have failed no matter where he was drafted.

[Pete]

16 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

What's your stance here? The coach who got them to start their careers didn't matter?

Coaches matter. So does personal accountability.

 

Why did it take 3 years for Lafreniere to take a summer to completely focus on skating?

 

Kakko took a step forward last season, and then two steps back this season... Quinn hasn't been here in 3 years, so I don't know what he has to do with Kakko's lack of confidence today. I also don't really understand how a very successful college coach can be blamed from stripping the confidence away from a young player, when he coached a ton of athletes that age who went on to quite successful careers. 

 

My stance here is that when things like this happen it's usually not just one reason or person... There is blame for all the coaches, the player, and frankly the inability to stay healthy (bad luck).

 

 

[BrooksBurner]

5 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

You misunderstand — I'm with you on your assessment of Quinn. I'm not with you on this unfalsifiable approach to grading these players in a scenario we literally can't test against. Pragmatically speaking, we need to operate under the assumption that this is the player he is, and that some difference in draft status isn't likely changing this very much. I think you are giving entirely too much credit to the ability of one man to destroy the career of a player based on a very short amount of time, and you're also missing the very real consequence of this actually being true: it speaks volumes of Kakko (or any other players) complete lack of mental fortitude.

 

But if we're just gonna keep doing the unfalsifiable thing, then I'll counter with this: Kakko broke because he's mentally weak and he'd have broken because he's mentally weak no matter where he went. Remember that face he made the first time he watched Reaves beat the brakes off a guy? He was never remotely prepared for what professional hockey in North America meant and he'd have failed no matter where he was drafted.

 

I'm not absolving Kakko at all here. He probably is just mentally incapable of being the star that he was touted as pre-draft, but there's a massive gap between that and what he is today.

 

Kakko at 18 y.o., right out of the gate, got stuck in a vicious positive feedback loop of not living up to expectations and mounting pressure in a big market. We still have folks who think it's in there somewhere and we just have to be patient. I don't know one way or another, or if he needs to go somewhere else for it to happen, but I don't think it's unreasonable or implausible to question if he never enters that loop when he's 18 and 19 years old, his career trajectory looks different.

[BrooksBurner]

15 minutes ago, Pete said:

Coaches matter. So does personal accountability.

 

Why did it take 3 years for Lafreniere to take a summer to completely focus on skating?

 

Kakko took a step forward last season, and then two steps back this season... Quinn hasn't been here in 3 years, so I don't know what he has to do with Kakko's lack of confidence today. I also don't really understand how a very successful college coach can be blamed from stripping the confidence away from a young player, when he coached a ton of athletes that age who went on to quite successful careers. 

 

My stance here is that when things like this happen it's usually not just one reason or person... There is blame for all the coaches, the player, and frankly the inability to stay healthy (bad luck).

 

 

 

Agreed completely.

 

That's why I took the position that the team's performance was more than just a coach last year. Pretty sensible, eh?

Edited June 10 by BrooksBurner

[Phil]

Just now, BrooksBurner said:

 

I'm not absolving Kakko at all here. He probably is just mentally incapable of being the star that he was touted as pre-draft, but there's a massive gap between that and what he is today.

 

Kakko at 18 y.o., right out of the gate, got stuck in a vicious positive feedback loop of not living up to expectations and mounting pressure in a big market. We still have folks who think it's in there somewhere and we just have to be patient. I don't know one way or another, or if he needs to go somewhere else for it to happen, but I don't think it's unreasonable or implausible to question if he never enters that loop when he's 18 and 19 years old, his career trajectory looks different.

 

OK, but we can't prove that, or even reasonably assume one way or another. I get what you're saying, I just don't follow or subscribe to the same line of thinking. I think players are who they are. Yes, development matters, and can play a factor. I'm sure it did for him given he was the worst statistical forward in the entire NHL his rookie year, but I'm not sure swapping one NHL roster for another changes anything. What might have had a tangible impact is the decision not to play him in the NHL at all until he was ready.

 

In fact, I'm a big believer in MAGA — Make the AHL Great Again.

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Agreed completely.

 

That's why I took the position that the team's performance was more than just a coach last year. Pretty sensible, eh?

We're talking about Kakko and Quinn on a completely unrelated topic lol.

Edited June 10 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

Just now, Phil said:

 

OK, but we can't prove that, or even reasonably assume one way or another. I get what you're saying, I just don't follow or subscribe to the same line of thinking. I think players are who they are. Yes, development matters, and can play a factor. I'm sure it did for him given he was the worst statistical forward in the entire NHL his rookie year, but I'm not sure swapping one NHL roster for another changes anything. What might have had a tangible impact is the decision not to play him in the NHL at all until he was ready.

 

In fact, I'm a big believer in MAGA — Make the AHL Great Again.

 

I know it can't be proven, but there's a lot of examples of players who couldn't cut the mustard with their initial team, and then become players on the next one. 4th overall Sam Bennett comes to mind. It's not like it doesn't happen.

 

I don't even know how this convo got started in a Trouba thread lmao

[Phil]

Yes, and there are lots of examples of guys never figuring it out at all no matter how many teams they're moved to. Shit happens.

[Pete]

We live in a day and age with so much analysis now that a lot of redraft articles are pretty thorough and their assessment of what they got wrong during initial draft analysis. 

 

To a man, with Kakko, it has come down to skating. Bad skating leads to lack of production which leads to being dropped down the lineup due to no faith from the coaching staff which leads to lack of confidence.

 

Three coaches have treated him pretty much the same way which leads me to believe it's not on Quinn solely, and as much on Kakko for not fixing his skating, however all three coaches also raved about his attitude and work ethic so you would think at some point one of them will have to get through to him. 

 

This guy should literally work on his skating all offseason and nothing else. Quicker feet, explosive stride, separation from defenders. Everything that made Lafreniere better this season.

 

It's clear Kakko has hands and a shot. Fix your feet, man. 

Edited June 10 by Pete