Free Agent Target: Patrick Kane; Update: Re-Signs with Red Wings

[Phil]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

You don't even need that, 55-65 points is fine for that role and paygrade and is better than anything they'd had since Buch.

Coming in during the off season, and without the disruption of being a TDL add, Kane would automatically become the general on that line and he's always been vocal with teammates and linemates about how to behave on the ice. SEE?!?
 

 

I understand that. It still doesn't ease my concerns that he's built too similar to what they already have. When you look at his past performances, the best years with the best Hawks teams had a perfect balance of grit and skill. Including on his line. Is adding him to 20-93 going to change that at all? I have significant doubts, though obviously I'm open to being wrong.

 

1 minute ago, RichieNextel305 said:

You don’t think Kane makes more of a dent in the playoffs than Roslovic did?

 

Kane on one hip put up 6 points in 7 games for us against the Devils.

 

Hes never been the biggest or strongest or fastest. But he knows how to produce in the playoffs.

 

And a player like him may be the key to unlocking Mika in a playoff series.

 

That's not what I said. I said I'm not sure his skill set brings enough to change the outcome because his style is too similar to Zibanejad and Panarin, etc. That style is dazzling when the ice is open and you can exploit all kinds of factors in the regular season. I'm not sure him on this Rangers team is enough of a style change to make any difference. Even though, yes, he's clearly better than Roslovic or Wennberg or any of those kinds of players.

[LindG1000]

3 minutes ago, RichieNextel305 said:

You don’t think Kane makes more of a dent in the playoffs than Roslovic did?

 

Kane on one hip put up 6 points in 7 games for us against the Devils.

 

Hes never been the biggest or strongest or fastest. But he knows how to produce in the playoffs.

 

And a player like him may be the key to unlocking Mika in a playoff series.

@Phil is concerned with getting bodies to the net and is correct that Kane won't fix that. But if Kane can be that general on the ice and get Kreider to do it more - that's a big win. If he can show Cuylle how to do it, even better. 

KZ have said they need a passer. That's straight from Mika's exit interview. Few are better than Kane.

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

 

I get this, but at the same time, two years ago was weird. Tarasenko is clearly in some amount of decline, we just got the top end of it. Kane was clearly labored in a way he wasn't with the Wings. Of the options out there, considering cap space, expectations, outcomes, etc - I think it's really hard to beat Kane. Especially if having Kane makes it so that Kreider uses that size of his more at ES because he thinks he might see a pass or a Zib slapper he can get a stick on.

Yea TBH I think people have a bad taste in their mouth from the Devil's series and not many have watched enough Detroit to see how good he was when he came back.

 

As someone who had a hip resurfacing and waited until I could barely walk to do it, the difference in my skating was noticeable and immediate, so now imagine Kane with the best rehab in the world and it's easy to see that he's still an impact player.

[Phil]

Just now, LindG1000 said:

@Phil is concerned with getting bodies to the net and is correct that Kane won't fix that. But if Kane can be that general on the ice and get Kreider to do it more - that's a big win. If he can show Cuylle how to do it, even better. 

KZ have said they need a passer. That's straight from Mika's exit interview. Few are better than Kane.

 

Right. On paper, it could work, but I don't think I'm crazy for having reservations. And those aren't even based on his last run here when he was hurt. It's because I think the Rangers' biggest fault isn't a lack of talent, but a lack of type of talent.

[Pete]

1 minute ago, LindG1000 said:

@Phil is concerned with getting bodies to the net and is correct that Kane won't fix that.

Still shocking to me that we're looking for a big bodied RW who goes to the net to play across from 6-3 235lb Chris Kreider.

[BrooksBurner]

The biggest issue with Kane 2 years ago was integrating him on the power play effectively. IIRC, the power play with Tarasenko on there in place of Trocheck, had just started to show signs of gelling. Then Kane went on for Tarasenko and it never really caught on, but you can't really tell an HOFer like Kane he's seeing the 2nd PP unit. There would have to be a tangible plan. By the way, this probably blocks Lafreniere...again...and I doubt he's going to take kindly to that with respect to any contract negotations. They can't purposely refrain him from legitimate PP time and then use it against him in negotiations, or they will eventually and deservedly lose him.

[LindG1000]

Just now, Pete said:

Yea TBH I think people have a bad taste in their mouth from the Devil's series and not many have watched enough Detroit to see how good he was when he came back.

 

As someone who had a hip resurfacing and waited until I could barely walk to do it, the difference in my skating was noticeable and immediate, so now imagine Kane with the best rehab in the world and it's easy to see that he's still an impact player.

 

Kane was a point a game player on one leg against the Devils, and basically did the same playing with no real consistent linemates. (I guess you could call Debrincat a consistent linemate, but he has no combos he spent more than 20% icetime with).

 

When you factor in what he's capable of, leadership, intelligence, cost, etc - this feels very hard to pass up. 

[Phil]

Just now, Pete said:

Still shocking to me that we're looking for a big bodied RW who goes to the net to play across from 6-3 235lb Chris Kreider.

 

100%. But it's reality. It's why I'm so focused, too, on wanting someone to drag him into the fight. It's hard to post up on the walls for 90% of the game when 1/3 of your line is taking the puck to the paint every shift.

[Pete]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

 

Right. On paper, it could work, but I don't think I'm crazy for having reservations. And those aren't even based on his last run here when he was hurt. It's because I think the Rangers' biggest fault isn't a lack of talent, but a lack of type of talent.

Here's what I keep coming back to...You're tunnel visioned on a certain type of player because there's a narrative that it's the only type of player who can score in the playoffs. But here's a guy who is wildly successful in the playoffs (in the Western Conference, no less, which had traditionally played heavier hockey), and we've seen it, and since he does it outside of the way you think it needs to be done you're like "Nah he doesn't help".

 

This team needs playoff performers, I don't care how they go about doing it, as long as they get it done.

[Phil]

1 minute ago, BrooksBurner said:

The biggest issue with Kane 2 years ago was integrating him on the power play effectively. IIRC, the power play with Tarasenko on there in place of Trocheck, had just started to show signs of gelling. Then Kane went on for Tarasenko and it never really caught on, but you can't really tell an HOFer like Kane he's seeing the 2nd PP unit. There would have to be a tangible plan. By the way, this probably blocks Lafreniere...again...and I doubt he's going to take kindly to that with respect to any contract negotations. They can't purposely refrain him from legitimate PP time and then use it against him in negotiations, or they will eventually and deservedly lose him.

 

I can't think of anything less relevant to their goal of winning a Stanley Cup.

[Pete]

Just now, Phil said:

 

100%. But it's reality. It's why I'm so focused, too, on wanting someone to drag him into the fight. It's hard to post up on the walls for 90% of the game when 1/3 of your line is taking the puck to the paint every shift.

Well if American Muscle doesn't get his dick up playing on a line with the best American forward ever, then he can fuck himself.

[Br4d]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

Still shocking to me that we're looking for a big bodied RW who goes to the net to play across from 6-3 235lb Chris Kreider.

 

How often do you see Kreider getting cross-checked by a defenseman in front of the goal?  He's there all the time on the power play and frequently at 5v5.

 

I'm willing to bet the average player would take much more abuse in that position than Kreider does.  However because Kreider is not really a player in the physical realm he just doesn't draw that abuse despite being one of the best in the NHL in front of the net.

[Phil]

Just now, Pete said:

Here's what I keep coming back to...You're tunnel visioned on a certain type of player because there's a narrative that it's the only type of player who can score in the playoffs. But here's a guy who is wildly successful in the playoffs (in the Western Conference, no less, which had traditionally played heavier hockey), and we've seen it, and since he does it outside of the way you think it needs to be done you're like "Nah he doesn't help".

 

This team needs playoff performers, I don't care how they go about doing it, as long as they get it done.

 

Yes, we've seen it, on teams he's played on who had the right mix of grit and skill. The Rangers don't in my estimation, which is why I'm so bullish on not wanting to add more skill. It has almost nothing to do with him as an individual performer.

[LindG1000]

3 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Right. On paper, it could work, but I don't think I'm crazy for having reservations. And those aren't even based on his last run here when he was hurt. It's because I think the Rangers' biggest fault isn't a lack of talent, but a lack of type of talent.

 

You're not wrong for having reservations. But there are many ways to address your concern, and one of them is simply giving the big bodies or the north-south guys an incentive to go to the net. Kane can do that. 

 

At the end of the day - if having Kane on the RW actually fixes KZ - do you really care if it happens in the way you envisioned? I don't. 

[Pete]

1 minute ago, Br4d said:

 

How often do you see Kreider getting cross-checked by a defenseman in front of the goal?  He's there all the time on the power play and frequently at 5v5.

 

I'm willing to bet the average player would take much more abuse in that position than Kreider does.  However because Kreider is not really a player in the physical realm he just doesn't draw that abuse despite being one of the best in the NHL in front of the net.

Standing in front of the net ≠ driving to the net with and without the puck. Kreider is static in the O zone. That's why he's useless on the forecheck. He goes to the net, stands there waiting for a shot to deflect, line goes one and done and then he goes off on a [usually ill timed] line change.

 

Of course I'm being hyperbolic, but not by much. 

[RichieNextel305]

Just now, Phil said:

 

Right. On paper, it could work, but I don't think I'm crazy for having reservations. And those aren't even based on his last run here when he was hurt. It's because I think the Rangers' biggest fault isn't a lack of talent, but a lack of type of talent.

I think the type of talent you’re looking for is more pie in the sky though then anything else. The Rangers clearly have restrictions this off-season. Losing Goodrows full hit lessen the burden. But things can still get tight. I’m not sure if there is a big, strong, young power forward available this summer who may fit our price range and you know what you’re going to get from him. And if he was, we likely couldn’t afford him anyway.

 

The reason Kane is appealing is because he can give you potentially the best bang for your buck. If he can help you unlock Zibanejad a little bit and give you some more ES production there, that’s already a win.

 

I get the concerns with getting to the middle. But Florida has done that to a lot  of teams. It’s not that we can’t, it’s that one of the best defensive and best structured teams in the league did it to us. And to a lot of other teams. Boston is bigger than us. They had a tough time getting to the middle. Edmonton figured it out right now, but it also took playing against a team led by arguably the best talent the leagues ever seen to see results there.

 

Laviolette said it best at breakup day: we’re gonna build our way and try to win our way. We can’t replicate other teams because we don’t have other teams pieces. The same way other teams can’t replicate us if they don’t have pieces like we do.

 

Kane doesn’t make us bigger or tougher to play against. But who knows how the rest of the off-season goes? If you can get him on the (relatively) cheap and get production, while also leaving potentially more room for another middle-6 player, that can go a way in lengthening the lineup too.

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

 

I can't think of anything less relevant to their goal of winning a Stanley Cup.

 

Their power play falling flat in a series is a large reason why the team has been eliminated 2 years in a row. This would still be a team that requires their special teams in order to potentially survive. Incorporating Kane properly is paramount to success.

 

If your comment was just about the Lafreniere part, that would be short sighted of them not to consider it and I hope that's not the case.

[Br4d]

2 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Their power play falling flat in a series is a large reason why the team has been eliminated 2 years in a row. This would still be a team that requires their special teams in order to potentially survive. Incorporating Kane properly is paramount to success.

 

If your comment was just about the Lafreniere part, that would be short sighted of them not to consider it and I hope that's not the case.

 

There's no point in not giving Laf power play time at this point.  He's going to ask for whatever he asks for based on his view of what he would have if he was on PP1.

 

Seriously, it's totally short-sighted to try to control negotiations with Laf in his RFA years on the theory that he is just going to forgive and forget when UFA rolls around.

[Pete]

The Rangers don't exist to get Lafreniere his cookies. If it's in the best interest of the team that he doesn't get PP1 time right now, then so be it.

 

If that makes him butt hurt, so be it.

[Jdog99]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

The Rangers don't exist to get Lafreniere his cookies. If it's in the best interest of the team that he doesn't get PP1 time right now, then so be it.

 

If that makes him butt hurt, so be it.

 

Its in the best interest of the team, because he's potentially the best player on this team.

[Phil]

33 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

How often do you see Kreider getting cross-checked by a defenseman in front of the goal?  He's there all the time on the power play and frequently at 5v5.

 

I'm willing to bet the average player would take much more abuse in that position than Kreider does.  However because Kreider is not really a player in the physical realm he just doesn't draw that abuse despite being one of the best in the NHL in front of the net.

 

I'm not sure there's a bigger supporter of his here, but the issue is not his unwillingness to be at the front of the net, but to take the puck there with him. With his speed and size, he should be willing the play there much more than he does.

[Phil]

35 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

 

You're not wrong for having reservations. But there are many ways to address your concern, and one of them is simply giving the big bodies or the north-south guys an incentive to go to the net. Kane can do that. 

 

At the end of the day - if having Kane on the RW actually fixes KZ - do you really care if it happens in the way you envisioned? I don't. 

 

No, I want to win. I don't care how. I have my own personal preferences (I'd love them to punch their way there), but all I want is to win.

[Pete]

11 minutes ago, Jdog99 said:

 

Its in the best interest of the team, because he's potentially the best player on this team.

They had the best power play in the league without him. 

 

He's not the best player on this team. He might be one day. But not today.

[Phil]

26 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Their power play falling flat in a series is a large reason why the team has been eliminated 2 years in a row. This would still be a team that requires their special teams in order to potentially survive. Incorporating Kane properly is paramount to success.

 

If your comment was just about the Lafreniere part, that would be short sighted of them not to consider it and I hope that's not the case.

 

Again, not to be glib, but I don't care. Win. If that means Kane, that means Kane. If that means Laf doesn't get the runway he wants to be more productive, oh fucking well.

[Phil]

37 minutes ago, RichieNextel305 said:

I think the type of talent you’re looking for is more pie in the sky though then anything else. The Rangers clearly have restrictions this off-season. Losing Goodrows full hit lessen the burden. But things can still get tight. I’m not sure if there is a big, strong, young power forward available this summer who may fit our price range and you know what you’re going to get from him. And if he was, we likely couldn’t afford him anyway.

 

The reason Kane is appealing is because he can give you potentially the best bang for your buck. If he can help you unlock Zibanejad a little bit and give you some more ES production there, that’s already a win.

 

I get the concerns with getting to the middle. But Florida has done that to a lot  of teams. It’s not that we can’t, it’s that one of the best defensive and best structured teams in the league did it to us. And to a lot of other teams. Boston is bigger than us. They had a tough time getting to the middle. Edmonton figured it out right now, but it also took playing against a team led by arguably the best talent the leagues ever seen to see results there.

 

Laviolette said it best at breakup day: we’re gonna build our way and try to win our way. We can’t replicate other teams because we don’t have other teams pieces. The same way other teams can’t replicate us if they don’t have pieces like we do.

 

Kane doesn’t make us bigger or tougher to play against. But who knows how the rest of the off-season goes? If you can get him on the (relatively) cheap and get production, while also leaving potentially more room for another middle-6 player, that can go a way in lengthening the lineup too.

 

It's not. Hartman. Tuch. Jeannot. Three names. There are probably a lot more we're just not talking about. Max Domi would qualify. He's UFA. What I want, personally, is a dynamic shift in playing style to add to what they have already that we know works well in the regular season but doesn't translate to the post-season.

I'm not asking them to replicate any other team. I'm asking them to change their mix by adding players that I think are better designed for playoffs success. I'm not telling you this is the only way it can be done, I'm telling you that I believe Brian Boyle when he says that every year, teams with "big boys that can move" go far.